Identification please

[Phil Smythe Member Find all posts View Profile Close Phil Smythe]

I wonder if anyone would care to date and attribute this 'Afghan' piece please. All I know is it has a provenance that makes it made no later than1950 at latest. It is 1.25 x 0.9 metres and the knot count is 140 per square inch. (The photo below is one square in wide but not high, which is the only photo I have of the knoting from back.)

I have photos of others similar I would be interested in getting feedback on, but going on what Steve Price said in another thread, it seems best not to post to many at once.

Thanks for any help.

Phil

[Steve Price Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Steve Price]

Hi Phil

I don't think that's Afghan. Everything I can see points to it being a Yomud chuval face, probably late 19th century.

Regards

Steve Price

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

At first glance I too was thinking at a date guess of around 1950 based solely on a few of the motifs. I went to all my books and found nothing on the main and minor Gul. I even got out Moskova’s work and couldn’t find anything.

I did find this piece on eBay which the seller dates to 1900. Of course this is one seller and not a true date with scientific and/or a professional analysis.

I do agree on going on the Yamud direction for a tribe. Sticking with the notion of “less is more” with the early pieces. I would like to think this is 2nd-3rd qtr 19c. I will however patiently wait for the pros to chime in.

either ways, it’s a nice piece.

Joe Lawrence

[PaulSmith Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PaulSmith]

Hi Ortali,

I think that dating your chuval to 2nd/3rd q. 18th-c. is extreme. Do you have any supporting information to date it so early? It looks to me to be c.1900. And I would have to see more accurate/closeup photos of Phil Smyth's piece before I determined that it was from before 1900, as some colors look suspect to me.

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

Hello Paul. I have no supporting evidence other than a guess based on my limit research. It’s so hard to be accurate on these. Nonetheless, hopefully it will spark some interest with another member with more information on it.

[Phil Smythe Member Find all posts View Profile Close Phil Smythe]

Thanks for all the input Gents!

Ortali, are you saying you think this was made around 1950? That seems rather late, no? My mention of 1950 in first post meant I know it came out of Afghanistan around 1950, not that I thought it was made around then (and also why I put 'Afghan', not that I thought it was Afghan made, just that it came out of Afghanistan).

And what colours do you think are suspect Paul? Unfortunately that is the best photo I have. All I could do is crop out and post a smaller area, if that is any help?

[Steve Price Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Steve Price]

My mention of 1950 in first post meant I know it came out of Afghanistan around 1950, not that I thought it was made around then (and also why I put 'Afghan', not that I thought it was Afghan made, just that it came out of Afghanistan).

Hi Phil

Not meaning to be snarky, but why would anyone care whether it came out of Afghanistan or when that happened? There's no useful information in that, and mentioning it created a red herring.

Steve Price

[Phil Smythe Member Find all posts View Profile Close Phil Smythe]

There was no intention of creating a 'red herring' Steve, and I would have thought that anyone could tell what I wrote had an obvious bearing, and that was simply to point out the fact in dating the carpet that it could not be made after 1950 (because that's when it came out of Afghanistan) i.e."All I know is it has a provenance that makes it made no later than1950 at latest." Anyway, I'll take your advice on board and spell it out in the simplest of terms in the future in the hope that no one misconstrues what I thought (think) was pertinent / helpful info.

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

Thanks for all the input Gents!

Ortali, are you saying you think this was made around 1950? That seems rather late, no? My mention of 1950 in first post meant I know it came out of Afghanistan around 1950, not that I thought it was made around then (and also why I put 'Afghan', not that I thought it was Afghan made, just that it came out of Afghanistan).

No. I am throwing out a guess at an early piece based on the motifs and design. At first glance, I was assuming a 1950’ish piece until I looked more closely and its known that early pieces have less designs and are somewhat simple. I do agree as a safe bet it could be around a 1900 piece but who really knows. I’m hoping that a member will chime in with some more supporting evidence.

Even if it was made in the last 60 years, it’s a wonderful piece and a keeper. Thanks for posting it.

[PaulSmith Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PaulSmith]

Ortali, It isn't actually hard to say that your chuval is not woven before 1850. I doubt that it was woven before 1890. Mid-1700s is not possible for this piece. I first assumed that you meant "19th-c" but even there... your Yomud doesn't look to be 2nd or 3rd q. 19th c., either. Can you show an image of a Yomud from the early 19th-c. or before that looks like your piece?

Phil, The photo of your whole piece is pretty out-of-focus, and the colors don't appear to be accurate. Closer and more-precise photos that captured the color accurately would be helpful, otherwise it's hard to be confident about dating.

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

Paul, yes I made a typo. It should be 19c. Sorry for the error. The Chuval I posted as a reference is not mine. I merely used it as an example.