Of shed and shot. A question

[Phil Smythe Member Find all posts View Profile Close Phil Smythe]

Greetings fellow rug enthusiasts!

A newbie here, with a couple of questions that will no doubt show my rug construction ignorance, so please bear with me if some of the terminology I use below may be incorrect.

I have been studying of late the foundation of rugs, and although feel relatively confident in most aspects, no matter how hard I try I just don’t think I am getting my head around shot/s and shed/s terminology usage.

So, hoping that a photo is worth a thousand words, two questions using the close-up photo below for reference. The two white dots represent rows of knots. As can be seen between those knot rows are two ‘rows’(?) of three single weft threads (six total) that appear to me to be on two separate ‘planes’, or levels (i.e. three weft threads per 'level'), as it were. Therefore, the following two questions if I may.

Question 1.

So, although I realise a ‘shed’ is not a tangible object so to speak, are we seeing;

a) two rows of three single wefts between two sheds or,

b) six rows of single wefts between two sheds, or,

c) six rows of single wefts between one shed or,

d) something else entirely?

Question 2.

Depending on the answer to question 1 then, is what we see expressed as;

a) three singles, two shots or,

b) six singles, two shots or,

c) six singles, one shot or,

d) something else entirely?


Look forward to a reply and thanks for your patience.

Phil

[Dinie Gootjes Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dinie Gootjes]

Hi Phil,

Weaving terminology can be difficult for us all, but let us start with your multiple choice problems. I think the answer to both questions is d) .
To the best of my knowledge the term 'shed' is only .used when talking about the weaving process. It is the opening you create between upper and lower warps, where you then put a shot of weft through. The term 'shed' is simply not used when describing the structure of a rug. Then what is put through the shed in one movement, is one shot of weft. This (shot of) weft can consist of one strand, but also of multiple strands, as in the picture you show. Those three strands were put through the shed together, so they form one (shot of) weft. So between the rows of knots in your picture, you have two wefts, each consisting of three unplied strands of yarnvv. If they were twisted, they would be plied. When describing the rug you show, we would simply say it is double wefted. That is usually enough information, but in certain situations you might add that each weft consists of three unplied strands.

The great majority of rugs is double wefted. Single or triple, even quadruple or more, wefts can be an important indication to the origin of a rug. Many rugs from the Hamadan area are single wefted, Kazak rugs can have three or more wefts. A certain Baluch pattern is often single wefted, as is a fairly small number of Jaff rugs.

I hope this makes sense. If not, just ask. If I was wrong on some point of weaveology, I am sure someone will correct me .

Dinie

[Phil Smythe Member Find all posts View Profile Close Phil Smythe]

Hello Dinnie,

Thank you very much for your input.

To the best of my knowledge the term 'shed' is only .used when talking about the weaving process. It is the opening you create between upper and lower warps, where you then put a shot of weft through. The term 'shed' is simply not used when describing the structure of a rug.

Understood, I knew that only in the weaving process itself are we talking about a shed, not when describing a rug. Still I wanted to get my head around what I thought was happening was. So given that fact, from what you say, in that photo, what we are seeing is the weaver has used two sheds and put three singles through each shed during the weaving process. The answer is yes I would think? If no, can you then clarify please.

EDIT: Removed 2nd question as Chuck has already made an effort toward clarifying that (but would still like clarification re the above please).

[Chuck Wagner Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Chuck Wagner]

Hi Phil,

The ZnS construct describes a single unit of the final yarn in one shot of weft (one pass of yarn across the loom). The number in the middle, is the number of singles that are plied together into one unit of weft yarn - referred to as two-ply, three-ply, etc. Some writers - anthropologists, for example - refer to the final multi-single yarn as a cord, to distinguish it from a single length of yarn. In most cases it's clumsily referred to as thicker yarn.

Z2S describes a weft yarn comprised of two Z-spun single yarns, plied together with an S twist.

So your piece has a weft comprised of 3 shots of Z-spun yarn (3 singles).

This is accurate in this case, because the number of shots of yarn above and below the row of knots is the same, which is usually, but not always true.

We can also note that the weft tensions appear to be tighter beneath the row of knots than they are above the row of knots, introducing what is termed "warp depression", a technique that allows for better rendering of designs because each knot of pile creates a single "pixel" on the front of the rug.

Also, because you show a serious interest in the topic, you might consider investing in a copy of "Woven Structures, A Guide to Oriental Rug and Textile Analysis"" by Marla Mallett. Very well illustrated with both photos and drawings, and easily readable, it is a must-have for people infected with the rug bug.

Regards
Chuck.

[Phil Smythe Member Find all posts View Profile Close Phil Smythe]

Hello Chuck.

Thank you also for your input. However, unfortunately (for me) my ignorance, or lack of comprehension, is I am afraid pushing me further down the rabbit hole. Most of what you say I think I understand save for clarifying the following if you would;

Z2S describes a weft yarn comprised of two Z-spun single yarns, plied together with an S twist.

Understood. But if there was three (for example) of what you describe above laid side by side (I realise my photo is not that) how would that be described in the ZnS 'method'?

So your piece has a weft comprised of 3 shots of Z-spun yarn (3 singles).

Then how is this expressed shorthand / abbreviated as it were, simply 'weft; Z3'?

And, here is where I am now getting somewhat more lost. Given there are six singles (three side by side on two 'levels' so to speak) between the two rows of knots (two white dots), how do we deal with / describe the other three singles. That is, your description above seems to only deal with / describe one 'group' of three singles (i.e. "..........your piece has a weft comprised of 3 shots of Z-spun yarn (3 singles).)?

My apologies in advance for being a thickhead!

[Chuck Wagner Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Chuck Wagner]

Phil,

The ZnS descriptor applies to a single yarn. Think of it like this: carded wool fibers are spun into thread. Each thread is either Z or S spun. Threads are plied into yarn. Each yarn is either Z or S plied, and the number of threads plied into the yarn determines the integer in the middle of ZnS. Most common household cotton string is Z3S.

Shorthand for yours is: 3 shots Z1

Regards
Chuck

[Phil Smythe Member Find all posts View Profile Close Phil Smythe]

Shorthand for yours is: 3 shots Z1

Thanks for your explanation / correction Chuck.

But re your above, given there are six rows of singles (two 'groups' of three shots each it seems) between the row of knots in the photo, your above description seems to only encompass three of those six. Surely, given the other three of the six are between the same row of knots then the other three must be accounted for somehow in the same description, no? They can't be ignored completely can they?

[Dinie Gootjes Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dinie Gootjes]

Hi Phil and Chuck,

... what we are seeing is the weaver has used two sheds and put three singles through each shed during the weaving process. The answer is yes I would think?

Yes.

To answer your last question about how to account for the other three singles, that is expressed in the 'double wefted'.

Chuck, you talk about three 'shots' of yarn in each weft. I thought that the term 'shot' indicates one pass through the shed. Aren't these three strands pulled through together, in one motion, so that they combined form one shot of weft? Or is each strand on its own bobbin?

[Chuck Wagner Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Chuck Wagner]

Hi Dinie,

Short answer: I'm not sure. That's a Marla question, or for someone who has done field observations anyway.

I think you would have to look at the edges of the rug to see if the three came through at once, or were individually wrapped at the selvage and run three times as singles.

I would guess the latter, mainly because if all three came through together I think it would be very difficult to get them to be parallel and flat. How ? Three separate shuttles maybe, or a mess of three yarns tied to one ? Yikes. It's not that hard to toss the shuttle back and forth three times, which would achieve this appearance. But, I did say "guess".

Regards
Chuck

[Joel Greifinger]

"Three separate shuttles maybe, or a mess of three yarns tied to one ? Yikes. It's not that hard to toss the shuttle back and forth three times, which would achieve this appearance."

Hi Chuck,
Pile rug weaving on vertical looms doesn't use a shuttle. The weft is hand interlaced, not thrown through a shed opening.
Joel

[Phil Smythe Member Find all posts View Profile Close Phil Smythe]

Yes.

To answer your last question about how to account for the other three singles, that is expressed in the 'double wefted'.

Thank you for those two answers Dinne. I assume the 'yes' is directed at my question to you re my photo. and as I surmised the weaver having used two sheds with three strands in each shed (and hence described as you say 'double wefted') during the weaving process.

Re you second answer, thanks also, as what has been confusing me somewhat was that Chuck seemed only to be describing one set of three strands (hence one 'shed' so to speak). And yes, again, I realise that the term 'shed' is only used to describe the weaving process, not when describing a finished rug, but still I wondered why he was not taking into account in his description the other three weft strands that exist between the two rows of knots. Your 'double wefted' seems to fit the bill!

So, following on re understanding rug foundation descriptions, a question re the following description by Elena Tsareva re a Turkoman carpet;

WEFT: two shoots, wool, brown, Z2

Given there is no S after the numeral (implying spin or plied) what does the 2 mean / stand for then? (I thought it may have been a typo having just left the S out), but I see similar description for other carpets she describes in the book, i.e. Z3 and Z4 even.

[Chuck Wagner Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Chuck Wagner]

Phil,

If Elena wrote Z2, I'm sure it means two strands of Z spun yarn laid in as wefts, but not plied together into a single cord.

Regards
Chuck

[Phil Smythe Member Find all posts View Profile Close Phil Smythe]

If Elena wrote Z2, I'm sure it means two strands of Z spun yarn laid in as wefts, but not plied together into a single cord.

Hello there Chuck.

Re your above then, given she already wrote 'two shoots' (i.e WEFT: two shoots, wool, brown, Z2) though, isn't that being rather redundant to state the same thing again, i.e. Z2? That is, she has already said there are only 'two shoots', so why then put the 2 as in Z2 if they are unplied? Would not saying just 'two shoots, Z (or two shoots, Z spun)' be the same / suffice? As I said above, if there are just two strands and they are unplied I don't see the reason / necessity for then putting a 2 after the Z, if the 2 just means / there are 2 shoots / strands (as we know they are unplied as the is no S there). Just seems rather unnecessarily confusing to me to for her to just state the same thing twice (if that is what is being done), but in two different ways / terms in the same description.

And on that note, and I am 100% sure I am far from the first person to say this, it is a great shame and very confusing that all authors / technical rug analyses experts don't all use the same universal terminology to describe the same thing as it were. I went through six different books yesterday, and only two of them described wefts using the same terminology as it were.

[Dinie Gootjes Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dinie Gootjes]

Hi Phil,

[I]WEFT: two shoots, wool, brown, Z2

I think the 'translation' of the above is:
Two shoots = two passes of the weft = double wefted
Z2 = as Chuck said: each weft consists of two strands of Z spun yarn not plied together into a single cord.

And no, you are not the first one to wish for a uniform terminology in the description of rugs. Alas, no one has ever been able to unify all rug lovers in this. But maybe we can start with a uniform terminology for people . You have called me Dinnie and Dinne now. Maybe we can agree to call me Dinie?

[Phil Smythe Member Find all posts View Profile Close Phil Smythe]

Hello DiNIe,

First my sincere apologies for misspelling your name, not once but twice! And here I am complaining about wishing rug terminology should be universal and I can’t even get your name right. No excuse (save getting old), so just call me Phil the Dill!

Now with that said, thanks for confirming that translation, but re your description;

Two shoots = two passes of the weft = double wefted

This “two shoots = double wefted”, would to me then seem, and I repeat ‘seem’, to me to translate down to '1 shot = single wefted' which if so 'seems' to contradict what you said above re Chucks description of my first post photo. That is, he said “3 shots, Z1”. If two shots = double wefted wouldn't that imply 3 shots = triple wefted?.

So I am still left wondering exactly how to properly describe the six single yarns in my first photo,

[Chuck Wagner Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Chuck Wagner]

Phil,

If the trailing number is the number of yarns plied together, and that number is 1, then it's the same as saying 3 shots Z.....

No more ambiguous than How are you today ? : Great, Just Great, Absolutlely Great...

Regards
Chuck