Middle Amu Darya? Chodor? Ersari?

[PaulSmith Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PaulSmith]

Years ago I saw this small Turkmen mat on a popular internet marketplace. I had never seen anything like it, and a rug-nerd friend urged me to buy it, so I did. It has no madder (unless that orange color is from madder) and no indigo whatsoever, but the remaining colors seem to be what you might find on a Chodor carpet with good age--the aubergine, orange, reddish brown, ivory, and bits of pale yellow. Still, it has kind-of an Ersari look to the drawing. I guessed that the people who wove this were only using dyes that they could make themselves, not purchasing dyed wool from indigo-or madder-dyeing operations. I hadn't ever seen another antique Turkmen rug that didn't have indigo and a madder red.



I've never seen another piece like it until today, on that same marketplace. So yeah, this item (below) is for sale, but I am just showing it as a comparison. I suspect this is a later piece (1920s?), with a more mechanical drawing, but it seems to have a similar use of color. The orange color in this newer example may not be natural, as it seems to have faded somewhat. There is a tiny bit of indigo-dyed wool used as a special material, and while my piece is a mat, this one is about the size of a long balisht. Is anyone familiar with what the origin of these pieces might be, or whether they are in fact related at all?

[Steve Wallace Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve Wallace]

Hello Paul, sorry no-one with expertise has replied. I'm too much of a dilettante, so couldn't attribute your rug to Chodor or any other particular Turkmen grouping. I think that rug for sale will be on sale for a while as it's completely unattractive to me.

[PaulSmith Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PaulSmith]

Hi Steve. Yeah, the rug for sale doesn't have the vibrant drawing, "soul," (or, I suspect, the age) of my example, but you never know how rare a Turkmen piece without indigo is until you go looking for one. There seems to be a story in it, but who knows..?

[Steve Price Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Steve Price]

We do not permit posting anonymously or under a pseudonym, ad hominem remarks, commercial promotion, comments bearing on the value of any item or on the reputation of any seller. That's copied and pasted from the paragraph atop this page (emphasis added). Please be more careful.

Thanks

Steve Price

[PaulSmith Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PaulSmith]

Well, hm. Not sure if that comment is directed at me, but ideally you could steer this thread back to my clearly-stated original intent by actually responding to my inquiry, or introduce information relevant to the topic, which was not about value, but about the existence of antique Turkmen rugs without madder or indigo.

[Steve Price Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Steve Price]

Hi Paul - I didn't intend to offend anyone. Your comment and Steve Wallace's both bear on the value of the piece that's on sale. That is, a novice ruggie's estimate of its value would be lower than it would be otherwise after reading the comments.

Turkotek has always avoided comments on pieces that are for sale unless they provided examples of points that are otherwise difficult to illustrate. Your original post included the one that's on the market. If it shed light on a point you were making, it escapes me.

Steve

[PaulSmith Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PaulSmith]

Hi Steve. The light shed by the piece "for sale" was not profound, I suppose, but it has a similar palette of colors, and I believe it is a later example from the same general source as my little rug. This palette is (apparently) extremely rare, since I have been unable (for years) to find anything similar in Turkmen work from the period of my piece (which I tentatively guess is late 19th century). So, when I saw a piece that IMO is a few decades later, but with a similar palette to mine, I thought it was worth noting, and I was trying to inspire someone to post a better example for comparison. Obviously, in this I have failed, and this thread will disappear into oblivion. Oh well.

I am well-acquainted with the non-commercial agenda here, having been a participant on T'tek for twenty years. I have been trying to steer this conversation towards my actual inquiry, which has nothing to do with value, but I keep getting comments about commercial value. I have no control over what you and others post in response to my thread, but please feel free to contribute a response to my actual questions, or delete this, or whatever... sigh...

[Steve Price Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Steve Price]

Hi Paul

I know you've been contributing to Turkotek for many years and that you bring much to the table.

When I read your opening post I scratched my head because you clearly see similar palettes on the two pieces you posted. On my monitor and on my phone, they're not even close. In fact, I don't see a single color that they have in common. That being the case (for me, at least), I have nothing to say about the explanation for their alleged similarity. The only other commenter, Steve Wallace, doesn't mention color. He does say that they look very different to him, as they do to me.

I'm sorry to see this turn sour, and I apologize for causing that. But the central issue from my end is that explaining why two totally different palettes are identical makes no sense at all. I am curious to learn whether other readers see the same palettes in both pieces.

Best.

Steve Price

[PaulSmith Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PaulSmith]

Hi Steve

The main issue is absence--the lack of a madder red and indigo (though the on-sale piece does have a bit of indigo, used as a special material). I have always been on the lookout for ANY Turkmen example related to mine in this way, and this was the first thing I saw that was even close. I think that both of these are some sort of Ersari (the warps are similar too). And, yeah, I know what you mean about what is not similar, as I think these are several decades apart. And they may not in fact be related in the least, but it got me thinking again about trying to find examples to compare to mine. So the orange color in mine is pretty clearly a vegetal color, while that is not clear in the other example. But both have a pale yellow (less prominent in mine--it's just bits in the border), a pale aubergine, the warm brown, ivory field. Mine also includes a reddish brown. For more closely-related colors to mine, I have to look at Chodor work, but I don't think my piece is Chodor (?). My friend Rich Larkin commented on this feature years ago, comparing a Chodor he owns with my little rug... Again, not exactly the same palette--the orange in mine is a deeper shade, the aubergine in his Chodor is more purple than mine, and of course his Chodor has at least two shades of indigo. Anyway, I hesitate to claim uniqueness for my piece, but I have been unable to find a truly similar example. So, I'm making the appeal, albeit clumsily, to the Turkotek community.

.

[Steve Price Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Steve Price]

Hi Paul

You mention the similar ivory fields on yours and the one for sale. On my monitor, yours has an ivory field, the other is white. Oddly, the palettes on yours and Rich Larkin's Chodor look similar.

Steve Price

[patrick weiler Member Find all posts View Profile Close patrick weiler]

Paul,
You must have the no blue blues
It seems like a hard dye to lose
Keep up the search
In tavern and church
They say that you must pay your dues

There are some Baluch pieces with no blues, like this one. Interesting because to get green they might have overdyed blue with yellow. This is identical front to back so no fading of a yellow component, though.
This Uzbek piece does have blue highlights, but not significant.

There are a rare number of folks who are blue colorblind. The weaver may have been clueless to the blueless.
"The effects of anomalous trichromatic vision can range from almost normal colour perception to almost total absence of perception of red, green or blue light."
Patrick Weiler