Rough in the diamonds

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  • Rough in the diamonds

    Rugmaging around in my rug bunker I realized that several of my SW Persian pieces have a similar design feature of a Latchhook Diamond or bird-heads motif. I put a group of these bag faces on a wall and thought a Show and Tell would be interesting. I posted the pix at "medium" size - the new software should enable you to see a closer version.
    Here is a Luri carpet which has a column of these diamonds:

    Click image for larger version

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    Here is the smallest of the bagfaces at 17" x 14" with this basic design. Not sure if it is Luri, but it is most likely SW Persian. It also is the piece with the most basic version of the 2-1-2 design but with the 2 being small quadrupeds in alternating colors.


    Click image for larger version

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    Next is a "very" Luri version at 21" x 20", with soft, plush wool, bright, luminous colors and a more complex design with the corner motifs of smaller latchhooks in different-colored hexagons. The central motif is a version of the "endless knot" which is the most common central design.

    Click image for larger version

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    Next is a 22" x 20" piece which could be either Luri or Khamseh - or some might even say Qashqa'i. Heck, some folks might even say Afshar, but those people are suspect - you know the type; they believe in UFOs and such. The corner devices of decomposing latchhooks - without the surrounding hexagons - is a Luri feature.

    Click image for larger version

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    And the last of the large bagfaces, 24" x 23", likely leaning Khamseh-ish, but certainly open for discussion as well. The corner devices retain the hexagon surrounds

    Click image for larger version

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    Here is a much smaller piece, some might say Qashqa'i, with lighter colors, perhaps a bit later in date.

    Click image for larger version

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    Finally, (whew) a couple of "full" bags - one tiny version and one medium-size set with 13" x 12" faces.

    Click image for larger version

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    And the last set, with 19" x 17" faces:

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    Questions, comparables, queries?

    Patrick Weiler













    Attached Files

  • #2
    Here is the full photo of the original picture in the post - Luri rug, 5' x 7.5' with 6hx8v symmetric knots per square inch.

    Click image for larger version

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    Comment


    • #3
      Welcome back Patrick! ​


      May I offer you something? No, I am afraid I have nothing Persian.
      However, I have some Caucasian stuff. Like this Padar Kilim (detail)

      Click image for larger version  Name:	Med.jpg Views:	0 Size:	87.9 KB ID:	273


      or this Mafrash (detail)

      Click image for larger version  Name:	Mafrash3.jpg Views:	0 Size:	80.8 KB ID:	274

      or this small bag

      Click image for larger version  Name:	GoneBag.jpg Views:	0 Size:	181.2 KB ID:	275


      Well, Jaff diamonds are almost identical, no?

      Click image for larger version  Name:	jaffback1.jpg Views:	0 Size:	74.4 KB ID:	276

      Ciao,

      Filiberto

      Comment


      • #4
        ...and I hope you like this new software.
        I HATE it!!!

        Comment


        • #5
          I wanted to post something in order to check out the software upgrades. So far, the ability to directly post photos is great. I have a problem with forgetting to log In (at the top, right of the page) which allows posting pictures. I have not used many of the features yet - I see that there is a Facebook link and a Twit link to (I assume) send a post to your other social media pages.
          Nice examples, Filiberto! But now you have opened a can of silk worms. Which came first, the Luris or the LOSERS? If you follow rug pages on Facebook, there is an endless, relentless battle over the origin of several designs, including crosses and such. Marla Mallett has explained that to a great extent, many designs are structurally based - including a "cross" which would consist of 4 knots surrounding a center knot. A diamond is simply a confused cross with a few more knots, one of the simplest figures that a weaver using the grid system (which weavers work within) can make. One thing Luri weavers are good at is not being excessively obsessed with technical perfection. The fourth photo is a bagface which was the "bottom" face on the loom, so it is "upside down". Notice where the field intrudes into the border, here:
          Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG_2465.jpg Views:	0 Size:	342.6 KB ID:	280
          This piece also has a 3D effect of some colors eroding in height, including the white - some experts have suggested white wool may have been bleached, but perhaps it was finer wool to begin with, and more susceptible to wear.
          Patrick Weiler
          patrick weiler
          Member
          Last edited by patrick weiler; 05-20-2022, 04:43 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Patrick,

            I don't want to suggest anything ESPECIALLY if it's related to the origin of a motif. Perish the thought.

            As I said, I have nothing Persian with that “diamond” design. So I used what I have.

            About this precious software...

            I first answered to your post a few hours ago. During the process I had a “warning time-out for the upload of attachments” or something like that... Albeit there shouldn't be a time limit.
            I had to re-upload them.

            My answer looked fine, I posted it and even saved the thread (checked the images in the saved thread on my HD and they were OK).

            Then Joel warned me that he couldn't see the pictures in my post.

            I logged out, checked the thread and, right, my pictures weren't visible.

            Logged in again tried to edit the post...

            To make a long story short, I deleted it and posted it anew.

            I never tried the Facebook and Tweet because I cannot stand “Social Media”.


            Let me know if they work somehow.







            Comment


            • #7
              PS -
              I have a problem with forgetting to log In
              .
              When you log in, check the box with "Remember Me" and next time Turkotek should open with you "Logged In" already. Unless you Log Out, of course.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Pat,

                A few more South Persian examples that are pretty 'rough'. The first is listing to the right:

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                The others are more centered, but have their own quirks:

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                And then there's this little mat:

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                I figure the first, second and fourth are Luri. But, I'll leave it to others to wrangle over the proper attributions.

                Joel Greifinger

                Comment


                • #9


                  Hi Pat, et al.,

                  Nice to hear from you again !

                  This particular combination of motifs does appear to have Persia as its locus, with outliers from surrounding regions.

                  Filiberto has provided some examples from the Caucasus; I wonder if someone has Anatolian examples; surely there are a few.

                  Alphabetically (more or less) here are the findings from the image library of our collection:

                  Regards
                  Chuck

                  Two Afshar bags (in the first, it is the RED diamonds that are our target motif)



                  A Bakhtiari-Lor bag


                  A Baluch runner, and a balisht (with a - very - dark palette)




                  A Chakesh rug from NW Afghanistan


                  Two Lori bags (I think we decided these were Lori, many years ago)



                  Two Qashqai bags and one flatweave runner





                  A more recent Yalameh runner



                  And last, a Yomud rug from the early 1900's

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    One difference from the "old" version is that the most recent posts appear at the bottom, not at the top. I had a bit of a rough start with the new software, with the page "timing out" but realized it was because I had not been logged in. Chuck, that first piece sure seems to look conclusively Kurdish. Here is my Kurdish bag section:



                    The runner near the bottom might be some kind of sofreh. Quite unusual. And your number 8 is my favorite.

                    Joel, your third piece is probably Khamseh. The first one is charming, with the offset center - very unusual. And here is a piece a bit like your last, small rug. Click image for larger version

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                    Patrick Weiler

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      One difference from the "old" version is that the most recent posts appear at the bottom, not at the top.
                      Hi Pat,

                      If you would prefer to have the latest posts at the top, you can change your preferences in your User Profile:

                      1 - Click on your name. This will take you to your User Profile.
                      2- On the left side, under your avatar, click on the top blue button, labeled "Edit Settings".
                      3 - This will take you to User Settings. In the top menu, to the right of "Profile", click on "Account".
                      4 - Scroll down to "Conversation Detail Options". Under "Display Mode", you have the choice of "Posts" or "Latest Activity". If you want the most recent posts to display at the top, click on "Latest Activity".
                      5 - When you're done, scroll down and click on "Save Changes" on the bottom right.

                      Joel

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Pat,

                        p.s. your Kurdish bag section doesn't show for me.

                        On the first piece, I'm not convinced re: Kurdish (yet). I have seen pieces with the same motif attributed to Khamseh, Veramin (whatever that means beyond geography) Afshar, Qashqai, and Kurdish. Structurally, it is very much in line with other Afshar pieces I have; symmetrical knot with no distinct pull left or right, and no offset knotting. I agree that the flower and vines border is often a Kurdish flag, but again, I have it on other obviously Afshar pieces as well.

                        Cheers
                        Chuck

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Structurally, it is very much in line with other Afshar pieces I have
                          Chuck,

                          Show us the back…

                          Joel

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Joel, Pat, et al.,

                            Presto:

                            Most of my Afshar pieces show some degree of knot depression, but I have at least two (other than this candidate) that have none.

                            Which is why I say, the jury is still out.



                            Regards
                            Chuck

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi Pat,

                              Here a few examples from our rugs. First a Baluch of the knotted shoulders type
                              Click image for larger version  Name:	Baluch Moeder to Niek 009.jpg Views:	0 Size:	236.1 KB ID:	315
                              A Caucasian (?) mafrash panel (?)
                              Click image for larger version  Name:	mafrash panel Caucasian.jpg Views:	0 Size:	164.1 KB ID:	316
                              And a few South Persian ones, first a complete chanteh with purple silk wefts, probably Q'ashqai?
                              Click image for larger version  Name:	chanteh 2 001.jpg Views:	0 Size:	305.0 KB ID:	318
                              A cheerful Luri
                              Click image for larger version  Name:	Luri bag face 002.jpg Views:	0 Size:	177.6 KB ID:	319
                              And a wacky Luri
                              Click image for larger version  Name:	Luri Utrecht back.jpg Views:	0 Size:	168.5 KB ID:	320
                              I had expected to find more South Persian ones, but it turns out the rugs I was thinking about were missing the bird's heads. Anyway, there were a few.

                              I am still finding out the the finer points of the new software, but I do like the possibility to directly upload pictures from the computer. A long standing wish fulfilled!


                              Dinie

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