"Belutsch Balischt. Khorssan. Antik."

[Erik Persson Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Erik Persson]

At the same net auction in Germany where I bought the Tekke "Germetsch" that turned out to probably be a Tekke Torba instead, I also purchased a small Baluch Balisht. Here is the description by the auction house:

"80 cm x 42 cm... Baluch Balish. Khorssan. Antique. Hand knotted. Wool and camel hair on wool. Early piece. Natural colors. Probably over 100 years old. Tribal carpet of the Turkmen."

Do you think this is correct? Is its somewhat strange shape an example of "deliberate wonktitude"?

[PaulSmith Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PaulSmith]

Hi Erik,

As the main promoter of the term "deliberate wonktitude," I would say that the shape of this very nice balisht is not deliberate, but an artifact of the weaving process. Really, it's not that distorted. There is no warp depression here, so this was probably woven in a nomadic context, and the looms were as simple as can be. I think it's a major achievement that these weavers could get such fine pile weaving as regular as they did. There are features here that are aguably deliberate wonktitude--like shifting sizes of the little elements in the minor border surrounding the field, but this weaver had her design pretty well worked out, in my opinion. This was an experienced weaver with skills.

This weaver sure had some awesome reds to work with. I wonder if that purplish red is cochineal, which is considered a late thing in Turkmen weaving, but a better thing in Baluchis, I suppose because it came in earlier. Very interesting field design too. I would say that this was late 19th-c. and a very fine piece. Congratulations!

Paul

[Daoud Bouaiachi Registered Find all posts View Profile Close Daoud Bouaiachi]

Hi Erik,

I don't think this is an early piece. The brown color of the wool doesn't look like the right camel brown and I doubt that the wool is camel wool. The camel wool in older pieces have a glossy shine and really jumps out from all other colors. Although I really like Balouch pieces myself, I don't agree with the given description by the auction house. I do like this piece but I would say that it belongs to the later mass production for the commercial market. In my opinion your piece is from the early 20th century. .

I do have to say that I could be wrong.

Thank you for sharing your beautiful rug.

Daoud B.

[Chuck Wagner Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Chuck Wagner]

Hi Erik,

I don't know how long you've been studying or collecting weavings, but I can tell you this: WIth respect to origin and age, everyone has an opinion, and almost no one (other than the original in-country buyer) has actual knowledge. Much attribution and aging is based on extrapolation of structure , motifs (and changes in motifs over time), and dyes, documented by earlier reseachers and buyers. In the rug trade, the term early usually refers to something older than 1850 for ethnographic tribal pieces from Persia, the Caucasus, rural Turkey, or central Asia and possibly as old as the 14th or 15th century in the case of rugs from urban Persia, Turkey, India, or China. Chemical analysis of dyes and radiocarbon dating can provide some higher confidence but are expensive and still not exact predictors of age or origin.

Still, there are characteristics that help distinguish between goods made for personal use (and the early commercial products that haven't drifted very far from traditional methods), and pieces made en masse for the commercial markets. There's a lot of material in our archives that discuss this topic; too much to cite briefly.

For example, one has to consider that the Russians were in central Asia in the mid 1800's and were buying or seizing weavings and taking them home. Such pieces would have virtually no sign of wear, and if kept out of sunlight, would still have the original colors. An inexperienced eye today, might just judge them as new reproductions. And rug dealers know that old pieces will draw more money than new ones. As a result, some pieces made in 1960 look like they were made in 1850 because they were laid out on a roof in Kabul, out in the sun for a month, then laid in the street for a month, and then brought into a shop for sale...

All this leads up to, I agree with Daoud's early 20th century commercial suggestion, partly because the design is somewhat away from traditional motifs (it seems to be a mix of Baluch and Turkmen motifs) but especially because of the more rigid drawing, and the synthetic dyes (only 1860's or later): the orange dye used in the borders and the faded red. To my eye, these are consistent with goods from western Afghanistan dating from 1900 or so, up to the 1940's.

Here are a couple older Baluch balishts (boleshts... whatever) that we have, both with a more traditional palette and motifs. I think they are probably from somewhere between 1875 and 1915, and likely made for personal use. Or, if commercial goods, they are from the early days of Baluch commercial work.

This first one has at least one synthetic dye :







This one seems to me, to be all natural dyes:












Regards
Chuck

[Mikko Saikku Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Mikko Saikku]

Hi Erik, hi all,

I did check out your beautiful piece before there were any replies by the more competent commentators. My personal--and rather uneducated--"virgin" assessment would have been early 20th century, mainly based on the more rigid drawing, reminiscent of my own "5th quarter 19th century" Baluch rugs. (BTW, great comments by Chuck on the difficulty of dating rugs.)

Colors are very hard to judge from a computer screen, not to mention that at least my cell phone camera produces just awfully unnatural colors. But what about the dark browns on your balisht--any corrosion there? I would expect at least some with a 19th century piece?

Also, could the fading of the red result from a chemical treatment--quite common with pieces imported to Europe in the early to mid-20th century?

Best,

Mikko

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

Not much to add but in reference to laying pieces in the sun to look old; another trick used is to cover a piece in yogurt to age the piece and to purposely destroy parts of a rug to appear older. There are a lot of fake old rugs out there and generally are targeted at foreign tourists with little to no rug knowledge. I was recently in Bodrum Turkey which is a Mecca for tourists and cruise ships. Places like this I don’t care for but it was the closet city to where I was staying and I needed an ATM. Along the main tourist area near the harbor, a street that is covered and has fancy looking shops selling fake name brands, I found two carpet dealers. I walked into to one and saw a few Turkoman weavings. The owner, an elderly man said the piece was a Yomud Asmalyk and it was from the 19th century and he wanted 600 euro for it. I told him I don’t use euro or dollar and I just use Lira. I said that on purpose to test the waters. My comment worked and the seller lost interest in me immediately. I did tell my German brother in law in Turkish that the piece was a fake and it was intended for a tourist and said this loud enough for the seller to hear it. You can assume these sellers speak 3-4 languages and at one time may have been a legit rug seller.
My point is, there are a lot of fakes out there and a lot of pieces being sold has antique and natural dyes with full knowledge they are newer pieces or made within the last 30 years for example.

[Erik Persson Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Erik Persson]

Thank you all - I am quite overwhelmed by all the highly fascinating and expert comments and viewpoints that my humble balisht received! We are not supposed to discuss prices here, but I can assure you that I got this one at a very lowly price, so even if it would be severely misdated or a "fake" of some kind, I cannot complain - after all I like the rug, otherwise I had not bought it! Being eager to learn more about the rugs I have purchased, I really appreciate being able to tap the tremendous expertise available here at Turkotek!

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

For clarification, I was only referring to a few bad apple sellers. Most are extremely honest, humble and kind. I was also referring to some of the tactics used to make things look older. You rug is a nice piece and should have been bought to enjoy…to which it sounds like you did instead of considering it a valuable one of a kind piece… which it sounds like you didn’t do.
When we buy a new piece it’s always fun to get others opinions on it so we can learn more. The pros always gives us little clues to look for which really helps.

[Chuck Wagner Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Chuck Wagner]

Erik, et al. (hopefully Paul is looking at this one),

As Joe noted, if -you- like it, that's really the most important factor. Tastes, genre interests, and buying criteria evolve over time. I've shown two examples above, of older boleshts. Now I'll show one that is either older and incredibly well preserved or a 20th century piece that could be from anywhere between 1900 and 1960.

It was purchased at a time when several balishts showed up in the local market over the course of a year or so, many of which had notably nice work.

On the back.

When my wife or I see what we think is exceptional workmanship or design, we are interested, old or new.

The colors on front of this one are hard to capture with digital photography - most digital cameras oversaturate in the red bands. Plus, the wool is shiny and reflects glare into the lens. But the extras tossed into the construction of this piece suggest it was made for a special occasion and then possiby tucked away rather than used regularly. Extra fringe lines, pile tufts on the kilim back, and exceptional flatweave design work made this one worthy of out rug vault.

Regards
Chuck

[PaulSmith Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PaulSmith]

Hi Chuck,

Yeah, that has some similarities to my recently-posted mystery monster balisht, the main border in particular (was that the reason you wanted me to see this?). The red appears to be more intense. The back on yours is WAY fancier, of course.

I can imagine Erik's balisht being first-q. 20th century, but I think the camel is a righteous shade (right-enough camel brown for me), and without seeing the whole back, it's hard to know what colors have faded (if any). I see no evidence of bleeding, so I think some of those reds (at least) are righteous as well. The indigo looks good, too.

But, who knows.

Paul

[Erik Persson Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Erik Persson]

Here is a picture of the back of my rug:


The picture is taken by my Smartphone in overcast October daylight, so the colours will not be as well reproduced as in the professional photographs in my original post.

[Mikko Saikku Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Mikko Saikku]

No picture on my screen!

Mikko

[Steve Price Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Steve Price]

No image on my screen, either.

Steve Price

[Erik Persson Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Erik Persson]

Strange, I can see the picture. I will make a new attempt here:

[Mikko Saikku Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Mikko Saikku]

Erik,

Still no image! That happened to me the last time I posted. Keep it simple while uploading and check whether the images show up in a device where you're not logged into Turkotek.

Mikko