c. 1800 (?) Tekke Torba

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  • c. 1800 (?) Tekke Torba

    In my bottom-feeding rug collection habit, occasionally I come upon something that is pretty unusual, and I think this Tekke torba is such a special example. If you find something standard out there, it's not that difficult to pull out the books and dig around on the internet, and determine what you have, but in this case, the more I have gotten into it, the more unusual this piece seems to be. I understand that we have no real time line of verified examples before the end of the 19th century, except for the carbon-dated items from the early 18th century and before. Nevertheless, as I've looked for analogues to this torba, it is pretty clear that, while we do lack that verified progression of dated examples, dealers and experts do seem to have a consensus on dating for the most part, placing items into mid-19th c. and before dates. One peculiarity of this example is its pristine condition, which led me to assume that it was later than it apparently is, but as near as I can tell, I think this is early 19th-c./c.1800, based on colors/drawing/patina/material. Of course, I am open to any and all opinions. I am not an expert, just someone trying to figure this stuff out.

    Click image for larger version  Name:	TekkeTorbaFront.jpg Views:	26 Size:	100.6 KB ID:	1282

    From the back...

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    The first thing that struck me about this piece is the unusual number of colors. While there is no silk/cotton (that I have found yet), there are about twelve distinct colors--the wine red ground, the blood-red elem, apricot, a pale pink, and a smoky rose--the last two are used like special materials in gul quarters in the middle row. There are four blues--dark surmey, a very electric mid-blue, a light blue, and a teal that was probably greener a century or two ago. There's pale yellow, ivory, and brown. Here are some closeups showing some of these colors...

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    Here is a shot of the pale yellow, smoky rose, and pale pink wool from the back...

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    The effect of all these colors is to make the piece sparkle. Digging through the books, I found a match to the interesting drawing of the border in Hoffmeister, example #53, dated "first half 19th century or earlier." (p.68)

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    It was harder to find an example with the shift in the ground color seen here, though I found a couple. The one thing that I have not found in another example is the shifting proportion/drawing of the main gul from bottom to top... In my example, the bottom row of guls has some little doodads in the ivory and apricot corners, the next row up is a little smaller, and smaller doodads, and the top row is smaller yet, minus the doodads. I have pointed out this sort of phenomenon in other old Turkmen before, and that it seems like an obviously intentional design choice on the part of the weaver. A three-dimensional effect? An attempt to create a sense of movement in the design? I don't pretend to know, but it is very common in really old Turkmen, and very carefully executed in this example.

    Click image for larger version  Name:	TekkeTorbaCloseGuls.jpg Views:	26 Size:	288.7 KB ID:	1287

    The knotting is very fine, about 30v x 12h or c.360 kpsi. I am curious whether anyone has access to images/examples that are comparable, or any insights into this piece, as I have exhausted all of my resources. Cheers, Paul
    PaulSmith
    Senior Member
    Last edited by PaulSmith; 03-04-2023, 02:38 AM.

  • #2
    Whatever it is it is a wonderful piece with outstanding colors and many correct motifs and structure to be correct for the 19c era IMO. I will do research later today on it to see about those Triangles.

    updated: I went through every book I own and although I found motifs and other similarities, I am at a loss. Hopefully those with more knowledge than me can chime in. I still think it’s a wonderful piece and at times, although rarely, older pieces can be found in great condition.
    Joe Lawrence
    Senior Member
    Last edited by Joe Lawrence; 03-02-2023, 12:27 AM.
    Joe Lawrence

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    • #3
      Sigh... well, I guess I could have expected crickets on this inquiry. While the honorable agenda of Turkotek is to be free of commercial interests (for good reason), the fact is that this field of inquiry is weirdly located between the academic spirit of freely-shared information and individuals whose knowledge is worth money.

      Anyway, I think that all the signs here point to my c.1800 dating. And if anyone has an insight to show that I have over-dated the piece, or heck--maybe it's mid-18th c.!! -- I mean, it would be interesting to know. A few knowledgeable folks on the Facebook rug page seemed to point at it being older rather than younger, but it seems no one wants you to know. They might want to buy it.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by PaulSmith View Post
        Sigh... well, I guess I could have expected crickets on this inquiry. While the honorable agenda of Turkotek is to be free of commercial interests (for good reason), the fact is that this field of inquiry is weirdly located between the academic spirit of freely-shared information and individuals whose knowledge is worth money.

        Anyway, I think that all the signs here point to my c.1800 dating. And if anyone has an insight to show that I have over-dated the piece, or heck--maybe it's mid-18th c.!! -- I mean, it would be interesting to know. A few knowledgeable folks on the Facebook rug page seemed to point at it being older rather than younger, but it seems no one wants you to know. They might want to buy it.
        Hi Paul,

        It's a very intriguing piece. You're right, Turkotek has become a much less active forum. I think that's unfortunate. I've learned so much from this forum over the years.

        One interesting note is that your piece has a stenciled number on the back, likely indicated that it went through an Amsterdam-based firm in the first half of the 19th century. The Turkotek archives likely have some reference to that.

        I find the drawing and colours on your torba to be beyond the usual. Having said that, I am not nearly familiar enough with Turkmen weavings to offer a useful opinion about dating.

        Cheers,

        James

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        • #5
          Can you speak more about the stencils? I have researched that in the past and did t find a thing.
          Joe Lawrence

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          • #6
            I did find these 2 Tekke examples from the Neville Collection book. Both are dated to the beginning of the 19c or not later than 1850. I found two motifs that are IMO somewhat hard to find on later pieces. I circled them in red. One is has been called a “spider” motif and the other is the 5 small combined boxes.
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            Attached Files
            Joe Lawrence

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            • #7
              Hi Joe,

              Originally posted by Joe Lawrence View Post
              Can you speak more about the stencils? I have researched that in the past and did t find a thing.
              The stencil was put on imports to the Netherlands... I understood this to be an early 20th-c. thing, but maybe they were doing this earlier. It seems to me that it ought to be possible to figure out a date that the piece went through customs, but I have never seen that information.

              The quincunx (five little dots arranged like the five on dice) turns up all over rugdom. I think Joel Greifinger may have done a deep dive at some point on that element, but I'm not sure. I am inspired now to go to the books and see where I can find quincunx in Turkmen weaving. I agree that the minor border made with those little spider guys seems to be an older thing, but on the chemche minor guls, I don't know that the use of the quincunx is a date indicator. Other Tekkes I have that are pretty old use chevrons, bow ties, and little diamonds made of four squares in the chemches, as on your second example in the aina guls. I wonder it that's called a "quarcunx."

              The main border in your first example is a version of the border in my piece. I think it's called a "kotchanak" border. It does appear to be simplified somewhat, at least on the bottom, which some people refer to as "design degeneration" and associate it with age (younger having more design degeneration), but "design degeneration" seems like a clumsy marker without the context of other age indicators. It does seem like that border goes away sometime in the mid-19th c., though.

              What I have yet to find in my current pursuit is a torba where the guls change from bottom to top. I think I've seen it in a torba, but I can't recall where. I have seen that in Turkmen rugs and carpets, where it is common before the late 19th-c. In rugs, it seems to create a sense of movement and depth in the field, and one theory is that someone sitting on the end with the smaller guls would look larger than someone sitting on the end with bigger guls, but who knows? It is common enough in old rugs that even if it weren't intentional (which I think it obviously is), it was so common that it must have been anticipated, and I assume some meaning was ascribed to the phenomenon. In a torba, obviously it can't meant that something at the top of the torba would look bigger than something underneath, but I think it is pretty obviously intentional here too. Maybe it is the depth thing. I sure don't know. Here is a mid-19th-c. Tekke mat in which the phenomenon is extreme. My Afghan rubab, sitting at the end, is weirdly inflated in size with the guls shrinking from the front to the back. They also acquire more details towards the top, and while the end closest to us here is tightly-woven at around 220 kpsi, towards the top it increases to over 300 kpsi.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Joe Lawrence View Post
                Can you speak more about the stencils? I have researched that in the past and did t find a thing.
                Almost 20 years ago there were a couple of threads on Turkotek. Vincent Keers posted information about the log books of these numbered textiles, and was even good enough to go to the log books to find the records of a couple of pieces (including an Ersari I owned). The log books had the sizes, purchase and sale details).

                You might find some of those threads by searching the archive. Vincent was a knowledgeable and engaging Turkotekker in those days.

                James

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi James,

                  It's true, I have learned a LOT here over the years, and when I go back into the archives, I generally learn even more. It is a great resource. I see a six-gul Tekke torba thread from years ago that I probably should dive into, as I would guess that a lot would apply to my twelve-gul example.

                  Yes, it is a blessing and a curse to find something unusual. I know it's uncommon, but for the same reason it's difficult to put it in context. One thing that intrigues me in this piece, and I think I need to go over it one more time with the magnifying glass, is that while this weaver definitely went for the maximum range of colors in her palette, I have yet to find either silk or cotton in the piece.

                  Paul

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                  • #10
                    Paul, James, Joe,

                    Being a Dutchie, though living in Canada, I have always been interested in those stencilled numbers, also because a dealer friend in Holland pointed them out to us before we ever knew Turkotek. The most illustrious of them is the "P number", the oldest series of inventory numbers from the Perez rug company, established in 1919. Vincent Keers never mentioned the name of the company here, maybe to prevent an avalanche of messages to the company with information requests from all kinds of rug lovers, but it is well known that the P numbers are from Perez. Also, Vincent was the 'directeur' (director/CEO) of the Perez company in/around the eighties, and so had an 'in' there when he gave the information about those rugs James mentioned. According to him the Perez company over the years used the letters P, S, and PZ. There was 'another shop' that according to him used only numbers in bold. I have always supposed that to be the Con & Verdonck company, the other big player in the carpet and rug trade in the Netherlands. It looks like your rug is one of those, Paul. That company is from 1933, so the number doesn't say much about its age. Besides these I have come across more letters, including a V, but I have no idea where they come from. Perez also had a branch in London, but I have no clue what system or letters they used there. The numbers Vincent put a date to were S 6752 as January 6, 1936 and S 17202 as October 13, 1936. The trade was booming in those years! Vincent also mentioned the odd fact that one of the directors before him had had all books of odd years thrown out to free up space. If only we had those Perez books... The company is still in business, though much modernized. I wonder if they still have them.

                    Dinie

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi Paul,

                      I looked at this early on, had intended to formulate a response, and then got distracted with more pressing stuff. So, sorry, but I'm glad to see some discussion now.

                      If there's anything on your piece that hints at mid 19th century rather than early 19th and earlier, it is the more complex minor borders.

                      Almost all the really old Tekke pieces have a single minor border outside the major.

                      That said, and as pointed out above, Elena has judged that piece from the Kingston collection as early, so like the Pirate's Code, the border constraint is more a guideline than an actual rule.

                      I think you can say first half 19th century, and possibly earlier, confidently.

                      The best way to get a more quantitative handle on the date will definitely move your piece out of the bargain basement.

                      A few years ago I sent some yarn from an old Tekke torba off the the ASU radiocarbon dating lab.

                      Standard price today is something like $595, it was less when I had the analysis run.

                      There are ambiguities in dating pieces newer than the 1600's, discussed a bit below.

                      We discussed it as part of this salon:

                      http://www.turkotek.com/mini_salon_00032/salon.html

                      It's archived now; the direct link to the torba thread is:

                      http://www.turkotek.com/mini_salon_00032/A_Tekke_torba.pdf

                      Regards
                      Chuck

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi Chuck,

                        Thanks for looking at my torba. You are absolutely right about the complex minor borders being a dating cue, I realize... that is a later thing. And looking at all the crazy-old pieces in that Tekke 6-gul torba thread, I see that the really old ones just have lozenge minor borders. I don't know when the fancier style came in, but I think it was in the first half of the 19th-c. I notice that the border configuration in my torba is seen in Joe Lawrence's second aina gul example, for what that's worth.

                        I enjoyed re-reading the thread on your C-14 test on that torba. I am tempted, and paid a low enough price that I could justify the expense. I will have to give that some thought.

                        In the six-gul torba thread there was a discussion of lac being used to get a pale pink, and I wonder if the pink and/or the smoky raspberry (?) could be lac-dyed, as I think this piece was made before cochineal was showing up in Turkmenistan. The expense of lac-dyeing could be why those bits were used as a "special material" even though they seem to be wool.

                        I think I will go study minor borders for awhile...

                        Paul
                        PaulSmith
                        Senior Member
                        Last edited by PaulSmith; 03-13-2023, 09:30 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Hi Chuck, et al.,

                          I still think that complex minor borders tend to be later rather than earlier, but I dug into my digital Rageth books and was surprised to see that while a lot of very old torbas and chuvals have the plain lozenge minor borders, I also saw examples that did use complex minor borders not unlike the borders on my piece. There's this 18th-c. torba, for example... p. 125, example #55. I guess I should revise my thinking--that a complex minor border is not necessarily an indicator of a more recent piece, that it depends on the context.
                          Click image for larger version  Name:	RagethEx55.p125.jpg Views:	0 Size:	80.9 KB ID:	1304
                          There was this "18th or 19th century" chuval with an intricate minor border, p.143, example #64

                          Click image for larger version  Name:	RagethEx64.p143.jpg Views:	0 Size:	103.3 KB ID:	1305
                          And while I think it is also true that minor borders on older Tekke main carpets tend to be the simpler lozenge type, I did find this example (p. 163, example 74) of a super old (17th-18th c.) main carpet that had a very similar border configuration to my torba. The previous example, #73, is a century older (!!) and also has this border configuration.

                          Click image for larger version  Name:	RagethEx74.p.163.jpg Views:	0 Size:	110.8 KB ID:	1306
                          PaulSmith
                          Senior Member
                          Last edited by PaulSmith; 03-15-2023, 03:21 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Paul,

                            So as I noted....



                            Time to do that radiocarbon work.

                            Regards
                            Chuck

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi Chuck, et al--

                              I've been giving the radiocarbon dating serious thought, but I find myself doubting that it would be significant. I think that the visible features of my torba point pretty clearly to the first half of the 19th century, but I seriously doubt that the piece is 18th-c. or earlier (!). I doubt that radiocarbon dating would tell me more that I didn't already know, and the cost is substantially more than I actually paid for this thing. At least that's my position this week, but I'm not completely ruling it out in the future.

                              However, it must be said that the Pirates of the Caribbean meme was brilliant.

                              Paul
                              PaulSmith
                              Senior Member
                              Last edited by PaulSmith; 03-22-2023, 04:46 PM.

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