Another Curious Khamseh Question
 

While there's a salon open on curious Khamseh questions, I've got one (albeit one about a set of pile weavings): What's the story on those 2.5-3ft x 2.5-3ft. Khamseh squares?

They don't seem to ever have any tell-tale signs of having been khorjin faces. There are a lot of them out there. Who (and what) were they being woven for?

Here's one that I keep on a desk top. It's got very pile long pile that's fun to pet:









Joel Greifinger

Hi Joel,

Well, for the Dutch who needed 'tafelkleedjes' of course

But seriously, I think they were possibly made for the European market as they are the most ubiquitous kind of small Persian rug in Holland, running neck to neck with Baluch bag faces and balishts, while they seem to be relatively unknown in the US before the internet era. As you suggest, they were probably never bags. Of all the hundreds I have seen, both in the wool and on the internet, I have never yet met even one with traces of a back or closure system. It would make sense for exporters to tell the weavers not to add those, as they were going to be cut off anyway, so a waste of material and time. That of course presupposes a kind of controlled situation, with people weaving for export. I think they were woven in a village situation for the foreign market.

And that meshes with the ease with which they can be described as a group: they are invariably coarsely knotted, warps all over the place, ivory to light brown to dark brown, or any kind of mixture, with or without goat hair, wefts usually a soft, dull orangey red. Knots open left. The wool is glossy, sometimes hairy. We had one that was definitely unpleasant for bare feet. Feel is heavy but loose, as the weave is loose, but the pile long. Usually there are one or more coppery to brownish reds, one or more blues, and a typical apricot. Yellow and a greyish green occur, but infrequently. Some have a truer red as the main colour, but I think those are later.
The designs are often coarse renderings of traditional Khamseh rugs, sometimes disintegrating into a field with a collection of flowers and filler motifs.

The fact that they went mainly to Europe ( destination Holland, also Germany, France or other countries?) makes sense, as they were very popular as table rugs (tafelkleedjes). I think that the almost endless supply of small weavings sent abroad by a handful of Dutch eBay dealers comes from the old Dutch custom of having rugs on tables, Persian or otherwise.
Or am I now suffering from a severe case of Dutchocentric thinking???

I kind of like them. They may not be tribal treasures, but the best ones can have beautiful saturated colours and almost gleaming wool. And yes: good for petting.

Here is one that is a bit larger than most, 4'x4', with an unusual design. Sorry for the washed out colours in the first two pictures:












A rendering of a typical Khamseh design, including the finicky border. It kind of works:





Flowers:





This one has a clear yellow, and a deep copper red field:




Nice border:





So Joel, you're doing it right: on the desk top.

Dinie

They were woven for the market. - for any country.
People wanted small door mats, table covers, pillow covers; you name it. Things like that are still being woven. I work part time for a dealer of new rugs, and we have stacks of rugs from 2 x 3 to 1 x 1. I don't think it was any different 100 years ago: markets are markets.

Let's Table this discussion.
 

A Persian rug dealer had a similar piece in his store which he claimed was his "baby rug". Made upon or anticipating his birth some 70 years ago by now. It may have been "of the type" which was also made and sold into the market like Marvin has suggested. But the format and size could have come from this "baby rug" tradition.
A rug cleaner in Seattle bought a Bijar mat from the family of the weaver on a trip to Iran. It is about 3' by 2' in size. She said that the local families, whose members work making commercial rugs, always weave one of these for a newlywed bride.
Here is a "Shiraz" rug, brought in to Rug Ideas, a repair shop in LA.


The owner, Dr. Khosrow Sobhe said about Shiraz rugs:
"A Shiraz rug is a type of Persian rug made in the villages around the city of Shiraz, in the Iranian province of Fars. The designs tend to come from settled tribal weavers so they mimic Qashqai, Khamseh, Afshar, Abadeh and Luri designs. Since the weavers are using fixed looms the rugs tend to be larger and often coarser than their tribal counterparts. Shiraz rugs are not often very finely knotted, with both Qashqai and Abadeh both having a finer knot. Shiraz utilizes the Persian (asymmetrical) knot. Shiraz is a city in the south west region of Iran, sited practically upon the old Persian Persepolis. Shiraz rugs are not usually made in a large factory, with the majority of them being woven by home weavers and taken into the main bazaar to be sold, most often, to traders who will group a sizeable range of these rugs and sell them to smaller traders or export them."

This system of tribal rug commerce in SW Iran may have grown over a hundred years or more from when the tribes were nomadic and wove rugs to sell, for trade goods needed, when they passed towns or cities during travel or near their winter quarters.
There has been a rug commerce at least going back to when the 17th century Transylvanian rugs from western Turkey ended up in Romania, 17th century Polonaise carpets in central Europe and Mughal rugs also from the early 17th century.
One or another Turkotek thread, and even "experts" around the world, claim that even the oldest rug known, the Pazyryk, was a commercial rug.
A rug "expert" can be said to be someone who professes to know something about rugs beyond just what the tag says at the rug store. Most of them have actually read a rug book - and we know how accurate those can be.

Many tribal rugs were not collected until around the 4th quarter of the 20th century as incipient collectors, rural pickers and hitchiking hippies (you know who you are) started bringing them back to Europe and the West. This increasing popularity generated a market which, combined with the opening of the former Soviet Union, brought thousands of rugs and trappings to Istanbul and London and ultimately spawned Turkotek.

So, can they be called "Tribal Rugs"? That phrase may be a bit shopworn by now.
Maybe "Collectible Rugs" is a more encompassing phrase.

Patrick Weiler

Well, I wouldn't miss an opportunity to participate in a thread on small, square Khamsehs. My computer screen sits on this one, so excuse the three evenly-spaced indentations. The colors (three blues and green, for instance) and the plush wool are pretty nice.





I understand that commercial rug weaving in Fars is an old and noble enterprise, but I wouldn't rule out some local use for a small square rug, at least as its original inspiration. I have this Baluchi (yes, all thread roads lead to the Baluch) which is the same size as these others with beaded loops on the ends of the kilims.





Again, extremely saturated colors, fabulous plush wool. I have seen this type sewn up into a bag, but that doesn't seem to be its original use; this one never was, anyway. I wonder about a cradle as the original local purpose for something like this; I don't see this being a commercial item, in any case. But I know better than to rule that out...

As with prayer rugs with the Baluchi, and Joel has pointed out the commercial trade in South Persian khorjin in an earlier thread, as I recall, centuries of trade with this region has included rugs, and someone with skills and materials could produce high-quality products. I couldn't begin to claim the ability to discern authentic from aesthetic-to-me expression in a Khamseh or anyone else's rug, but it sure seems to me that if they wove it to sell, that didn't stop them from doing a great job at it, using their traditional resources.

I like Patrick's term "collectable rug" That encompasses everything. What ever one likes and wishes to accumulate is "collectable": some people collect bottle caps, some mechanical banks, some like city rugs, some like village rugs, some like Transylvanian rugs , some like painted Sarouk rugs: all are fair game. More importantly, it gets away from arguing whether any given piece is nomad-made on a portable loom, village-made on a fixed looom or factory-made in a room full of fixed looms.

Toddler textile?
 

Paul,

It must have been challenging to post that Khamseh piece without being able to look at your computer screen while typing. I see, though, that at least you still had your keyboard to use, as it is visible at the bottom of the picture.

It is quite a nice looking thing, with the open, abrashed field. The restraint which the weaver shows, with only a mere four measly murghs in the corners, is amazing for a SW Persian weaving.
The suggestion that these were made solely for sale to foreign markets doesn't entirely jibe with our experience of tribal, or even village, weavings having at least some domestic application. They didn't have computer monitors after all, so they must have had some use. Even if made as a baby gift, they also probably served as a seating mat if nothing else. Considering that they are too large to be used as a chair seat, they would be big enough for someone to sit on. Perhaps someone nursing a baby even.

Patrick Weiler

Hot coals and more
 

Hi Paul,

I love the look of your rug. Yours is one of a pretty unusual group. Out of ten I have a picture of, three (including yours) have that border, the other eight have a flower and bird border. Nine have the red field, one has dark blue with a medium blue border. The central field design is either your knot, a cross design, or a simplified stepped medallion with pole. Not all weavers managed to keep things as simple as yours.




(image missing) http://www.turkotek.com/salon_00136/Khamse1.jpg








Tom Cole calls his one a ru korssi. From Wikipedia: A Korsi is a type of low table found in Iran, with a heater underneath it, and blankets thrown over it. It is a traditional furniture of Iranian culture. A family or other gathering sits on the floor around the korsi during meals and special events, like no-ruz (Persian/Zoroastrian New Year's Eve). Korsi used to be quite popular for entire families to gather together during yearly Yaldā celebrations.[1]

Korsi are generally heated with electric elements or traditionally with a brazier with hot coals is placed under the table, and covered with a thick cloth overhanging on all sides to keep its occupants warm. The latters sit on large cushions (futons) around the korsi with the cloth over their laps.

A special woven rug called ru-korsi is usually placed over any blankets to protect them from food stains.




They are usually flat woven, which would make it easier for putting items on them, but it seems they can be pile woven too. The overall design on Baluch and Afshar examples is remarkably similar to this group. Here are six Baluch from the Boucher collection.





A Sirjan Afshar one from Barry O'Connell's site:




Another possibility for the local inspiration of the larger group?

Marvin, I did not want to suggest that these square rugs were made exclusively for the Western European market, though I think I did end up sounding like that . But I do think that culturally there was a much greater demand for that size than in the US. How common were these Shiraz squares there in the twenties through fifties? In Holland, without going to too much trouble you can and could find them in people's houses, on flea markets, in thrift stores and on the equivalent of Craigslist. Here in Canada I have only seen a few at an antique market, sold by someone who imports antiques from Holland. I base my idea on the fact that people from the States seem to be mostly familiar with them from Dutch and German eBay dealers, and the fact that someone from the UK asked about them a few years ago on T'Tek. I think she was a dealer there, and she had just bought a dozen or so from Holland. She did not seem to be familiar with them, something that is pretty well impossible for anyone even vaguely interested in rugs in the Netherlands.

Dinie

By the numbers
 

Hi Dinie,

Do any of yours have the stenciled numbers and letters on the back that were on so many rugs imported into the Netherlands, presumably in the 1930's and 1940's? S 6752 and S 17202 were supposedly catalogued in 1936.

Joel

Hi Joel,

Do you mean those squares in general, or the ru korssi type?

Dinie

Dinie,

I mean on all of the squares in your stash.

Joel.

Hi Dinie, et al.,

So, Dinie showed an example a couple posts ago - the one where one of us is "petting" our tribal goods... ...hmmmm ...well, anyway, a couple posts ago, an example similar to a piece I have was shown and I would like to share this.

To me, it's a bit unusual, because I don't have any other pieces (and don't recall handling any either) with different color wefts - see third image - in this case one brown wool and another, somewhat thinner, of red wool. Maybe I just killed those brain cells, but I don't recall others.

Anyway, rambling, so here it is - with good colors and a bit low but stilll pettable pile (knots are AsymR):




















g

A quick post during yet another hectic work week; I'll try to actually contribute over the weekend.

Regards
Chuck Wagner

Hi Chuck,

On August 31, 2014 you wrote in the "Weft Colors" thread (post #11)
and then posted examples

It's all here: http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthr...7927#post17927



What are the dimensions of your Khamseh bag face in the previous post? I'm guessing it's smaller than these 2.5'-4' square types. If it is that large, could be a first.

As Dinie wrote earlier
Joel

Joel

There is a difference between changing the color of the weft as a piece progresses, and, using two different color yarns for the same weft line, non ?

It is a more standard khorjin size; I'll measure this weekend.

Regards,
Chuck

Wacky wefts
 

Chuck,

It looks in some places like there are two weft yarns of different colors in each shot. One red and one brown. Both shots are inserted with almost equal amounts of ease, making both shots sinuous and creating the relatively "flat" back appearance. This allows the lighter colored warps to appear, alternating diagonally with the wefts, between rows of pile knots.
I don't recall the two-color shot being used in other pieces, but I will now look for it.

Patrick Weiler

Oh, that kind of different
 

Chuck,

Oh...now I see.

That's going around

Joel

Hi Joel,

You asked about stencilled numbers on the backs of my squares. I needed some time to dive into our storage containers ("I am so happy I don't have to bother with all that ridiculous security stuff with a bunker, like poor Patrick", she said with a tight little smile, almost successful in hiding her jealousy). There are two with a number, but not an S number :banghead:, so that does not help us much. At least it shows they are from the "stencilled number era", so probably twenties through forties/fifties.
I mentioned that later the red changed from the brownish and coppery tints to a clearer red. Here is one:




Dinie

In the red
 

Hi Dinie,

I recently looked down in my front hall and found this:





Would you put this in the coppery group or in the later red?

Joel

Hi Joel,

That was a nice surprise! Keep looking down that front hall. Tomorrow there might be a bird Baluch there

Looking at my screen, that is not the newer colour. Interesting design with those white lines. I like it. Is it as large and coarse as the other one you showed? It looks kind of different from the group we are talking about.

Dinie

Hi Dinie,

It's 32" x 29" (81 x 74cm) and is as coarsely woven as the other. This one has orange-red wefts.

When I checked the front hall, there was no bird Baluch, but I will be sure to look again tomorrow.

Joel

Hi Joel,

Well, it does look like village work then. But truly red wefts are unusual too, they are often a very washed out greyish orange. The red on my screen also looks clearer than usual, without that coppery or brownish tint. To me the general appearance is different. Newly settled weaver, or one outside of the main production area?

Dinie

Hi Pat, Joel,

Yes, that's what I meant - two different color wefts in the same line sometimes red over brown, sometimes brown over red - but always two colors.. Tried to reply a couple days ago but something's been fishy w/TT connectivity lately. Anyway, I need to take a second look at my other pieces as well - I don't recall that particular feature elsewhere.

Coppery ? Sounds like irony - like goldy or bronzey, but with iron....

Some, might say dark orange.

Regards
Chuck

A wash out?
 

Hi Dinie,

Here's a close-up of the back. The colors look pretty close on my monitor:





Joel

Hi Joel,

A bit darker than most. I don't doubt it is one of the "Khamseh squares", but in design, colour and weave it is just a bit more polished and unusual than the majority. Certainly not a late one.

Dinie