Patrick Weiler

As a public service to Turkotek readers who may be new to rug collecting, or who simply have no artistic taste whatsoever, a thread devoted to rugs which are completely void of any redeeming value at all could be helpful. It may even be helpful to some long-time Turkotek regulars and seasoned rug veterans who still inadvisably hit the Bid button too quickly. And to those who ignore their better judgment and buy weavings better left unpurchased.
It is too late, though, for me, as this next rug will prove.



As you can see, it is a rather long and narrow rug. It is just under 3' wide and is 14' long. There are 4 horizontal by 5 vertical symmetric knots per square inch, with no warp depression. The selvage consists of three cords of two warps each, wrapped in blue or red overcasting in two-inch blocks along the length of the rug. The warp is mostly a vigorous orange wool or 2" wide sections of orange plied with dark goat or horse-hair. The wefts are two shots of mostly very dark wool. The ends have a couple of inches of blue plain weave and then red plain weave with a single line of two-color weft twining. One end has what may be the remains of braiding with triangular looped bases.
You may wonder why I have gone to such an extreme of technical description for a rug of no artistic or collectible value. Well, it is mostly because I have no idea who made it or where it was made. The structural description may provide the only clues.
This next picture shows the orange warps peeking out from under the red plain-weave end.



The next picture will show one reason that this rug would not be considered desirable. The dyes include a Hot Pink, Radioactive Red, one purple which has completely faded to gray interspersed with another which remains vivid and the ubiquitous orange of infamy.



Another feature which one should avoid is horizontal strips where the weaving has buckled, or puckered and the pile is worn down to the foundation. Also, the 4x5 knots per inch is an almost impossibly crude construction.
The design is not unusual, consisting of a full-length column of connected "baklava" bordered concentric diamonds. The rest of the field includes stars, quartered rosettes, boxes and a few indeterminate geometric forms. The very simple outer border is alternating X and diamond shapes. The inner border on a very light orange ground is of interconnected Star-Wars fighter-ships.
The corners are not "resolved" as they would be in finer rugs. This means that the design of the border, for instance, does not continue from the horizontal to the vertical axis in a complete, uninterrupted fashion.
It is a crudely designed rug of equally crude construction, with unquestionably crummy colors.
It has one useful purpose, though. It fits between the walls of my hallway.
As long as I keep the lights off, one would never know that this rug is a nearly unequalled example of what one should NOT buy.
My only guess concerning the origin of this rug is Eastern Turkey. No one else would lay claim to it. If you have a better idea, let me know!

Patrick Weiler

Brian Lynn

Are some colors intrinsically ugly or are we taught an aesthetic. Why is orange for instance "BAD". What about people who like orange are they aesthetically inferior to we the cognoscenti? The thrust of the thread and the salon seems to say those who disagree with us "simply have no artistic taste whatsoever".

Steve Price

Hi

You ask, Why is orange for instance "BAD". The short answer is: it isn't. The ruggie aversion is much more specific - it applies to a rather aggressive orange used between about 1900 and about 1950 that retained its color while the rest of the palette faded. The result is that it looks garish and out of place in those rugs.

I don't think Patrick believes that those who disagree with his preferences simply have no artistic taste whatsoever, or that many of the participants in this forum think that way. On the other hand, most of them find the colors of antique rugs much more appealing than those of later weavings. The subject of whether this is innate or learned has come up from time to time, but I don't recall anyone claiming that the "antique aesthetic" is intellectually or morally superior.

Regards

Steve Price

Unregistered

Hi Steve,
I certainly did not mean to cast aspersions on Patrick. I was just reading what he wrote and asking questions.
I like what you wrote about the "antique aesthetic". Thanks, it helps me to understand. I remember hearing about the flag “rule” of 1923, nations with flags before 1923 are usually red, white, and blue. From 1923 on flags often have synthetic colors. So with this "antique aesthetic" that you mentioned am I to take it that new rugs should follow a "antique aesthetic" to be desirable? Or perhaps that if they do they are more desirable?

The colors in the rug Patrick is discussing in this thread are possible with natural dyes aren't they? But as they are they are almost certainly later chemical dyes. Are there any rugs with obviously chemical dyes that you consider aesthetically pleasing?
Brian Lynn

Richard Larkin

Hi Brian,

Good question. I guess most of us can no longer remember when we thought orange was a good color. I distinctly remember owning a South Persian long rug about forty years ago, probably a Luri, the principal colors of which were deep blue and orange. It was finished in a strictly tribal manner, with latch-hooked diamond medallions on a pole up the center, and many birds and such (possibly ducks!) filling out the field. It was well and stoutly woven with very excelent wool. The only drawback was that the orange was synthetic. Moreover, the orange had "run" somewhere along the line, infusing both the natural white and a certain amber brown color (familiar in some South Persian rugs) with some of its essence. The overall effect of the rug was a monochromatic display of oranges against the terrific midnight blue. Incidentally, the rug bore the inscribed date of 1937.

At the time, not knowing any better, I thought it was a terrific look. It couldn't be beat in a dark room under incandescent spotlights. It was a while before I realized exactly what had happened with the running orange color. I must have gotten religion at some point, and the rug is no longer with me. Over the years, I've seen others of the type, i. e., long in format with similar designs in the blue and orange, suggesting that they are of a certain provenance. However, they have been of substantially lesser quality, especially in component materials.

The point of the story is that as an innocent, I thought the orange looked fine. Now, it's different. Yet, looking at other notoriously synthetic colors one finds in the market, such as many low grade Persian rugs with their acid reds, I am quite sure they are just plain ugly. I wonder whether controlled scientific tests have been carried out in these areas with sophisticated appraisers of color who happen to be ignorant of rug lore.

Rich Larkin

Joel Greifinger

Hi Brian,

Let me call your attention to the yastik I posted to launch another discussion thread from the salon, "A certain ugly sub-species". There I avowed my continuing affection for that piece despite the fact that the background color of the major border is an orange that ruggies generally deem radioactive. While I know that the presence of that dye precludes the piece from being collectible (at least for now), I like the overall effect in the context of the other colors, paricularly the undyed gray/brown background in the field. The pieces where I am aesthetically put-off by this orange is where it is utilized to highlight details that are then grossly out of balance with the warmth and relative intensity of the other colors. And, orange is not itself the issue since there are also oranges that are cherished by collectors, like the madder-based ones in older Anatolian rugs.

As Steve notes, the preference of current collectors is for the palette of antique rugs after their colors have aged. Given that the never-mellowing orange was becoming widespread in both Caucasian and Anatolian rugs over a century ago, we are now confronted with a large supply (and growing percentage) of genuinely antique rugs which offend the sensibilities of antique rug collectors. The stock of pre-synthetic examples in circulation is no longer expanding and we are bidding for the surviving fragments. Whether our perception and judgement of the aesthetic qualities of these "bad" colors shifts to accomodate the collectibility of late 19th and early 20th century antique weavings over the next decade is one of the interesting questions in this insular hobby/obsession of ours.



Joel Greifinger

James Blanchard

Hi all,

Actually, I think that there is little question about the socialization and normalization process that goes on in rug collector circles. And it works both ways. So, there tends to be a homogeneous aversion to colours that are obviously synthetic; particularly those that are not found in nature such as that particularly harsh orange. Lime green is another good example. On the other side of the coin, I think that "collectors" will sometimes agree on the aesthetic merits of rugs that the vast majority of "non-collectors" will generally see as being examples of aesthetically inferior rugs.

James

Joel Greifinger

Hi James,

In my experience, this 'side of the coin' is almost always focused on issues of condition. Overlooking tears, holes, exposed foundation, creases, moth nibbles, missing borders and detached selvages is certainly an acquired 'way of seeing'. I suppose being thrilled by a particularly unusual detail (as in, "Wow. I've never seen that border on a ...") marks another distinction. Are there other systematic differences of aesthetic sensibility that you have observed between ruggies and non-ruggies? Perhaps attraction to more formal workshop as opposed to tribal designs?


Joel Greifinger

James Blanchard

Hi Joel,

I would agree that condition is another factor that collectors forgive, where many non-collectors would not. In my experience, here are a few other factors about which non-collectors and collectors might disagree:

1) Technical quality - many non-collectors have been encouraged to look carefully at "knot count" and intricacy of design as an important determinant of "quality".

2) "Wonkiness" - When I look at a rug I will often make an instant judgement that it looks too "stiff" in the drawing. What I think I am seeing is the sort of formality that comes from mass production of particular designs, though there are some well-designed and drawn rugs of that ilk. However, many "tribal" rugs that collectors like look a bit "messy" to non-collectors, in my experience.

3) "Too much colour" - Occasionally, a "tribal" weave will have colours that are strong and don't conform to some modern notions about what colours "go" together. Many non-collectors can't imagine having a rug with a strong set of colours lest they overwhelm the rest of the decor.

4) "Too little colour" - This is the "Baluch bias"... I find that many folks find the sombre tones of some Baluch rugs to be a bit too boring for them.

Here are a couple of pieces that seem to embody some of the differences between collectors and non-collectors.

The first one adorns the wall by our kitchen eating area. Non-collectors always seem puzzled that we would deem it worthy of being on a wall. If you think about it, it is a rather jarring sort of design and colour combination, with some pinks and greens.

The second usually gets some reaction like "what is it supposed to be"? Or, was this made by "a beginner"? Others remark on how "colourful" it is, but I sense that it is not in the good way....

James

Brian Lynn

Thanks guys,
I am learning a good lesson so to speak. James I hope I don't offend you. Speaking of a man's rugs can be like discussing his daughter's looks, so please forgive me. I find your Caucasian rug rather late and stiff. The flaming botehs just don't "pop" and the border looks alien to Marasali. It seems almost a mix of two different types. But your second rug looks wonderful. I think it is Baluch from Zabol but I think Barry O'Connell suggested another group. The one who would know is Tom Cole, he has handled more of them then anyone. The diamond border is typical of type and the use of green is expected. In fact they have more green in their antique rugs than any other tribal group I know of. Money aside I would take the Baluchi over the Caucasian any day. But that brings up money. Isn't money value and the like a major component of the active collector community? The line between dealer and collector can blur with some of the guys Ive met. Funny thing is that it is almost always men except for one old harpy who calls herself a rug collector and uses it to skin people. Come to think of it I only ever met one black collector, I wonder why?
Brian

Steve Price

Hi "Brian"

Your comments come closer to bearing on a dealer's reputation than we like to go. No more remarks along that line, please.

I'm pretty sure I met a few African-American collectors at ACOR and/or ICOC at one time or another. One prominent African-American, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, collects Turkmen rugs.

Steve Price

Added Note: I've just been informed that Kareem Abdul Jabbar collected saddle covers and urban Persian carpets. My recollection of seeing him on John Kurtz's TV series many years ago was that he was a Turkomaniac, but my memory isn't always as reliable as I'd like it to be.

Patrick Weiler

James,

"Wonky" has become a political term, therefore "Quirky" is the term I used in the Salon to describe similar characteristics in weavings. "Charm" could also be used, but it has been usurped by scientists to describe one of the atomic "Quarks". Note that "Quark" and "Quirk" are quite similar, but completely different.
Got it?
I, too, really like the "Zabol" Baluch rug Brian prefers. It has what appears to be a "natural" orange. Anatolian, Afshar, Varamin and other weavers used copious amounts of madder-based orange to exceptional effect in their weavings. The cost and labor of producing these pleasing hues probably significantly exceeded the cost of using synthetic orange. This was possibly one reason synthetic orange became popular (with weavers, if not collectors).
SW Persian weavers, though, seem to have been enamored of the most garish orange colors ever invented. Photographs of tribal Qashqa'i women show them wearing brilliantly colored clothing. This color sensibility was incorporated into their weavings, too.
Steve is correct that the synthetic-orange and pink and green and faded purple among others, are markers of later weavings. This is enough to lessen the relative value of otherwise identical pieces. It also is a reason that some dealers have removed these obviously synthetic knots from many weavings and replaced them with less-odious colors in order to improve their market value.
As for your Marasali rug, the asymmetric placement of the botehs, the variety of their internal features and the bright colors give it a sense of movement. Movement is good soon after breakfast...
Joel has said:
"Whether our perception and judgement of the aesthetic qualities of these "bad" colors shifts to accomodate the collectibility of late 19th and early 20th century antique weavings over the next decade is one of the interesting questions in this insular hobby/obsession of ours."
Joel, you have found me out. All the rugs I have shown in this salon have been systematically collected so that when that "perception and judgment" have sufficiently changed for them to become acceptable and popular, I will have the corner on the market!

Patrick Weiler

Joel Greifinger

Ah Patrick,

Even I don't believe that collector perception and judgment will ever shift enough to enhance either the general aesthetic evaluation or monetary value of that 14' x 3' thing you exposed us to quite recently in this thread.

Joel Greifinger

Rich Larkin

Hi Patrick,

Before we lose track of the beginning of this thread (and I hate to keep picking fights with you), I think you've overestimated the utter worthlessness of your runner. Honest to Pete, though the colors might well overcome me in a closed room (or bunker...let's try it!), I almost like the thing in a macro view way. I mean, orange warps! Wow.

Speaking of orange, we must keep in mind there are many bad synthetic ones, and it is an ongoing debate which are the worst. I agree James' nifty Baluch mat has the good one.

Brian, is it your view that a Caucasian rug with these Marasali style flaming boteh must have orthodox Marasali secondary ornament (e. g., the border) in order to have merit?

Rich Larkin

James Blanchard

Hi Brian,

I agree that the Caucasian is probably late (i.e. late 19th or early 20th century). I have never thought it was "Marasali", but rather ascribe it as "maybe Shirvan". Bennett illustrates a couple of non-prayer format "flaming boteh" rugs that he ascribes more generically to "Shirvan", I believe. We like it because it does have some life, but it carries no interest for non-collectors. To them I think it just looks simplistic and disorganized.

The Baluch just looks "simple" and unremarkable to non-collectors. It is hard for them to understand why a mat with a basic geometric design would elicit any interest. But "collectors" all seem to like it. By the way, I agree that the orange is good, and what collector doesn't give extra marks to a really good orange?

James

Unregistered

Hi James,
I am speaking of my impressions of your rugs so let us keep it in that context. I think the flaming boteh design is from Marasali at an earlier point than Shirvan. I suspect the Shirvan non- Marasali versions were not an authentic outpouring of Shirvan tradition but were copied. The Baluchi rug is not a copy. I think it is an authentic outpouring of Baluch tradition. Can I prove it? Nope, just my opinion. I prize authenticity to the extent that I think I perceive it.
As for the orange and green there are other rugs akin to yours on the net with similar coloration. I see some sold as antique by reputable dealers and I am inclined to believe them.
Brian

Steve Price

Hi

Since you aren't registered (which is OK), your name won't show up in the message header (which isn't OK) unless you overwrite the word "unregistered" with your name when you post. Please do that.

Thanks.

Steve Price

Rich Larkin

Hi Brian,

(I assume you are the unregistered poster.)

I believe Marasali (Marasa, Maraza, etc.) is a town in the larger Shirvan district. Is your point that an authentic "Marasali" carpet was traditionally woven in or about the town; and that it was later copied in the region, but not necessarily faithfully? If so, do you have evidence or other data to support your opinion?

Rich Larkin

Joel Greifinger

...which embodied Patrick's democratic and egalitarian vision of ugliness for all. What's the problem? Why can't we seem to stick to rugs that we can all agree are truly ugly. Now we've got James posting a couple of rugs, both of which most of us clearly judge as truly attractive. (For the record, I have to go along with the crowd in preferring the Baluch).

To make it all more surreal, Rich comments,
How weird is this getting? Rich "Bad Dye Hunter" Larkin endorsing the overall aesthetic impact of Patrick's radioactive runner. Very trippy, as we used to say back in the 1960's (which I think I experienced but can't quite reliably remember).

We all need certain points of certainty to orient ourselves. Where will this all lead?

Joel Greifinger

Brian Lynn

Hi Rich,
I tried to make it clear that I am speaking of my impressions and what I suggest is opinion. Then you ask for evidence. When we really get down to it is most of what we get as “evidence” is a citation of someone else’s opinion. In rug discussions this can get into long chains of people citing sources that thread back to someone saying, ‘I think… “

So why do I think the flaming botehs are from the Marasa area? Mostly because the examples that I perceive to be oldest are of the group generally attributed to Maraza. They share characteristics such as color and tonality; they have what are generally considered Marasali borders. Older ones are said to have a higher knot count. If you want to understand Marasali rugs I would suggest starting with Kaffel. So when I look at other flaming boteh rugs I do not see any that seem as old as the oldest Marasali rugs. So since it is one of the few facts available that the Russians gathered up successful designs and encouraged weavers in other areas to use them I suggest that non Marasali flaming boteh rugs are the product of Russian guide books. As for the details on the Russian program you can see that book that Dick Wright and John Wertime wrote.

It is my humble opinion James’ rug probably came from a Shirvan type weaver probably in or near the Gendge area who used the Botehs with a local border.

Brian

Richard Larkin

Hi Brian,

I wasn't attacking you, or accusing you of anything. I was just trying to get at what was behind your opinion. Judging from Wright's research, I believe the initial Russian imperial efforts in the region were aimed at stemming the spread of traditional local designs into wider areas in the last quarter or so of the nineteenth century, and re-establishing them "where they belonged" in that cottage industry context. Apparently, market demand even at that relatively early date had resulted in the proliferation of local designs by copying in wider areas, and the authorities saw an urgent need to re-establish the status quo ante. To qoute, Wright, whose writing I tend to find quirky, and occasionally opaque, I wondered whether you were perceiving the finer, more sophisticated of the surviving Marasali type prayer rugs to be from the earlier, "authentic" production, and lesser examples to be from the later period.

An interesting article by Wright, accessible in the TurkoTek links, is here:

http://www.richardewright.com/0906_kustar.html

Rich Larkin

James Blanchard

Hi Brian,

You might be right about the origin of my rug. I would note that it has somewhat typical Shirvan construction, at about 100 kpsi.

Here's what Bennett says about the "only secular rug of the group". I presume he means by "secular", not a prayer rug...

"...the interlock border is not very often found on rugs attributed to Marasali. The piece is cotton wefted and, although probably of Shirvan origin, may not be Marasali."

He dates it to "late 19th/early 20th century.

Rich and others...

I am interested to hear the greater appreciation for the Baluch rug. Perhaps it is an interesting illustration of what collectors value? Perhaps its appeal is that it is somewhat "unique" or "unusual"? I expect that if it fell into a fairly common design lexicon (like "Marasali"), it would be judged more comparatively.

James

Patrick Weiler

"I am interested to hear the greater appreciation for the Baluch rug. Perhaps it is an interesting illustration of what collectors value? Perhaps its appeal is that it is somewhat "unique" or "unusual"?"

What about perhaps it could be better than the rest of the rugs from this Salon???

Patrick Weiler

Brian Lynn

Hi Rich,
I hope that I wasn't too defensive. I was trying to be careful because we are standing on "shifting sand" when we talk about rugs. Bringing up Dick Wright is an interesting segue into my point. Wright has done some very important work and it would be foolish not to respect and admire his accomplishments. But that being said I have some problems with his conclusions. I have not really delved into Wright in a while but I tend to compare and contrast what he writes with the works of others particularly Professor George A. Bournoutian of Iona College. Bournoutian has written about the population shifts in the Caucasus which I see as far more crucial to rug studies then as far as I can tell Dick Wright does. It is completely possible that I may be misjudging Wright but it seems that he over relies on late Russian sources such as M. D. Isaev's Kovrovoe proizvodstvo Zakavkaz’ya, Tiflis, 1932. So I worry that I will alienate some people when I express concerns about Wright's work. But when I find ambiguity in the literature I try to discern what I think is the most likely truth, So on Caucasian rugs I end up with some Wright, some Bournoutian, some Kaffel and so on to build my opinion. I think that is what most of us do, we sift the available information to make our judgments.

So I strongly suspect that that your summary of Wright may be an accurate assessment of Wright's position but I have trouble with it. I think the Kustar movement grew out of an effort by the Russians through the Commerce ministry office in Tiflis to find work for the tens of thousands of immigrants pouring into the Caucasus dating back to at least 1830. I strongly suspect that M. D. Isaev is about 100 years late and Soviet era Russian writers tend to follow the party line even when it differs from the truth. So when I read, "[The Russian bureaucrats] did not make a problem; the export market had already done that", I think is wide of the mark. Of course I realize that Kustar is a reference to a point in time policy and I am speaking of it as an expression of a continuum of Russian policy.
Brian

Steve Price

Hi

You appear to have read some of the Russian language sources, which puts you a leg or two up on most of us. I read a little Russian, but wouldn't dive into any serious writings in the language. Wright has drawn most of his conclusions from reading the Russian literature, so I give him considerable credence. I don't know whether Kaffel reads Russian; my impression is that most of his sources are secondary.

Wright's opinions are based on sources inaccessible to most ruggies. His book, co-authored with John Wertime, was reviewed on line by a Washington wannabe when it came out, and was criticized mightily for inaccuracy in the historical section. The critic never did respond to my query about how he knew that the history was inaccurate. It has many references, the review had none.

Works on the ethnohistory of the Caucasus in the 19th and 20th century are very difficult to evaluate. The versions by Armenian and Azeri scholars differ dramatically. Debating them can't possibly get us anywhere except into a small war, and we aren't going to do that here.

Thanks.

Steve Price

Brian Lynn

Hi Steve,
You are absolutely right. We don't want to launch a war over sources. This is the "shifting sand" that I talked about. All of us form opinions based on our input and how we consider things to make our conclusions. One person may take Wright as gospel while someone else picks and chooses from his work. It does not make either inherently good and it does not guarantee either is right. I think this is a good thing. We can come together and exchange ideas without needing to dominate the consensus. ... Section deleted by editor. ... Hopefully we can avoid controversy and discuss things in a way that can be beneficial to all.
Brian

Note: You are unregistered, so I can't contact you by email about what I see as potentially inflammatory content in your posts. I blocked one in the moderator queue a day or two ago, and edited out a passage in this one. If you'd rather not have it appear without the deleted passage, let me know, and I'll remove it.

Steve Price

Joel Greifinger

Hi all,

While the thread veered off into attractive rugs and Caucasian historiography, I have endeavored to find a weaving that fulfills Patrick's challenge of being ugly to one and all. I thought his radioactive runner did the trick, but then Rich effused that he "almost" liked it. So, we obviously need to dig deeper.

I'm hoping this bagface will do the trick. It fails in just about every way. It is shoddily drawn and poorly executed, uses the most gratingly, garish green I've ever encountered and shows overall technical incompetence. Of course you only get the full effect of the green when looking at the back. It has faded to a merely unattractive shade on the front so as not to distract from the oft discussed orange. And yes, I own it.



I think people from all walks of life can join together in rare consensus on the ugliness of this little weaving.

Joel Greifinger

Rich Larkin

Joel, Joel,

If I didn't Know better, I would think you are trying to set me up as the curmudgeonly contrarian in this salon. But I can't shy from duty. That Luri chanteh (?) is far, far below the standard of ugliness Patrick so courageously set for us with, for example, that winged victory affair. No doubt, I'm giving insufficient weight to the green, which we can't see very well. But no amount of green, however bad, could help your piece overtake Patrick's.

I may "kinda" like this one better than Patrick's aforesaid runner.

Rich Larkin

Patrick Weiler

Joel,

"Caucasian historiography"? It almost borders on Caucasian histrionics!
One problem with rug studies is that no one pays you to do it, so there is little motivation to increase the collective base of knowledge. Someone may dig deeply into one or another avenue of research, but without a critical mass of researchers cross-checking each other there is little hope of confirming conclusions or collective consensus. And because of the tremendous cross-cultural and cross-disciplinary conflicts, we can only hope to make incremental advances.

As for your ill-advised tangent back to weavings, Rich points out that there must be something to love about your Little Luri. If you can wear sunglasses to ameliorate the orange.

The Quirkiness Quotient is Quite Quelling and Compelling. Granted, the "drawing" is deplorable, the continuity is crude and the colors are crappy. And those RED warps!
Has anyone checked to see what ratio of SW Persian weavers is colorblind?

Thanks for shamelessly posting and admitting to owning the poor thing.

Patrick Weiler

Joel Greifinger

Patrick,

You certainly may be correct that, in general, rug historiography is to academic historiography as military music is to...

So, I put myself out there and get this sort of response:
Some sorts of input can get awfully discouraging when you're on the trail of serious ugliness.
But then, like a ray of sunlight:
Ah, as the possessor of this execreable little Luri, that's music to my ears.

Joel Greifinger

James Blanchard

Patrick,

That's what you think, but here's my point.

If we put my two rugs and your colourful runner in a grouping and asked a general group of "non-collectors" which rug they like best, my guess is that the majority would pick your runner.

Do others agree with my speculation?

James

p.s. I happen to think your runner is pretty snazzy...

Dinie Gootjes

Hi James,

I thought I would give it a try here. My ruggie husband likes your Caucasian best, our non-ruggie son likes your Baluch best , as I do. Our son is tarred with the ruggie brush I guess, but at least not tarred and feathered in T'Tek company .

Dinie

Chuck Wagner

...I can name that tune in one note:



Regards
Chuck Wagner

(no, it isn't mine..)

Patrick Weiler

Chuck,

I see that the weaver of your "post-artistic" rug (This Salon is single-handedly responsible for generating several new words and phrases for the Rug Lexicon!) helpfully placed red, concentric hexagons around the location for large animals to do their business.

And you will probably notice the weaver shows several animals heading directly towards the target!
Coincidentally, my flaming fuschia, inorganic orange, putrid purple, ridiculous red runner is the only rug in my house which my former adopted Rug-Dog refused to go on.
I call her a Rug Dog because it was painfully obvious she was professionally trained to do dirty deeds directly on, and only on, hand-woven rugs.
Thankfully she was unable to have offspring...

Patrick Weiler

Joel Greifinger

Hi Chuck,

Wow. There's just one bad green in my laughable little chanteh. This one proves an important point: even nice shades of green look bad when placed in the wrong green company.
Will we be seeing this one again come Christmas time? I can't really make them out, but I have the creepy feeling that the animals that Patrick takes to be 'headed for the target' may be reindeer.

Joel Greifinger

Chuck Wagner

Hi all,

As an addendum to the ghastly apparition prevously posted, I'll add this as an example of what a true rug bug can see - do you see hidden gem in this heap of disasters ? (this was posted previously, is a discussion on horrible dye jobs, as I recall). Finding the good ones buried in the mulch pile is the best part of a day spent wandering from one rug shop to the next...:



Regards
Chuck Wagner

Patrick Weiler

Chuck,

Forgive me if I do not see any gems in that hideous pile of moth fodder. The only thing possibly of any aesthetic value could be the Ersari/MAD piece third up from the bottom.
I do wish that you had purchased the whole pile, though. They would have provided endless entertainment for this salon. And it sorely needs some entertainment!
Perhaps you are leading us on and this is actually the stack of rugs in your closet.
You are commended for bringing to the wider rug-loving world several examples of what not to acquire.

Patrick Weiler

Chuck Wagner

Pat,

And now, for my next feat, I will demonstrate that some of our noble nomadic Qaashqai have a far better developed sense of poor taste than one might ordinarily suspect.

We've all seen recent Qashqai horrors with long gorgeous high quality wool dyed with absolutely hideous tones of orange, pink, green, etc.

But we don't usually see more traditional pieces end up as the weaving world equivalent of "Plan 9 From Outer Space".

Stand by to stand by:

Stand by:













It gets worse when you get closer:










Sorry. Absolutely horrible choice of colors and design, regardless of age and construction quality, this thing is a dog.



And, to close, I challenge your assertion that the -actually- quite nice Ersari piece in the heap is a low end slug nickle. Nope. One thing about rug shopping in the Middle East - the phrase: "That's as BAD as it can get" goes down in flames as you enter the next store and see THIS on the floor:



Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it...



Regards,
Chuck

(no, I don't own 'em)

Patrick Weiler

Chuck,

I would tend to call that first piece Khamseh, mostly due to the "floating duck border". That is another brand new rug term generated by this cutting edge salon, "floating duck border".
From 20 paces the design is reminiscent of an Afshar 2-1-2 style rug.
From 2 paces one begins to feel the need to consume a large quantity of Dramamine.
The colors have a Baluchattack feel, with the deep, dark, muddy, drab colors.
The main border is a hoot. I cannot imagine why it was not successfully copied by Pakistan Bokkara weavers.
The next abomination you presented is obviously a design patterned after nuclear reactors, with the central core, as shown in this web drawing: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6925138-0-large.jpg
surrounded by heat exchangers as shown in this wikipedia drawing, to the right of the reactor core:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/Magnox_reactor_schematic_%28int%29.svg/762px-Magnox_reactor_schematic_%28int%29.svg.png
Unfortunately, the reactors have leaked radiation, as shown by the frightening orange colors and dead appearance of the surrounding field.
Thank you for the public service you provide to aspiring rug enthusiasts.
Of what not to buy.

Patrick Weiler