Lloyd Kannenberg

Hello All,

Some rugs are born ugly, some become ugly, and some have ugliness thrust upon them. In the first category are those rugs in which the weaver's inspiration has gone bizarrely awry; these occasionally achieve that hideous grandeur seen in exhibits of the Museum of Bad Art. The second has, among others, those monotonic creations, appealing perhaps when new, whose non-colorfast dyes have succumbed to the ravages of sun and/or water. Finally, the third group includes victims of abuse, an example of which I offer here:



(Mudjur, or possibly Kirsehir, maybe late nineteenth century. There are vestiges of yellow and sulphonic indigo.)

Whence cometh this wreck? Some time ago, in cleaning out the former home of a friend who had died at the ripe age of 99, I discovered it soaking in a puddle of industrial waste in the basement. It smelled like diesel oil and looked like a painter's drop cloth, but for sentimental reasons I did my best to rescue it. Even now it is barely fit for polite company, but out of pity it remains in the Shelter for Abused and Damaged Textiles (SADOTex).

Best to everyone,

Lloyd Kannenberg

Joel Greifinger

Hi Lloyd,

You have introduced an important category to the discussion: the once noble (or at least decent enough) rug that has fallen on hard times or rough wear and is now severely conditionally challenged. You also identify the emotion that such a spectacle evokes in the ruggie's breast, pity. In his insightful analysis of pity, philosopher Thomas Hobbes wrote.

And so also to our beloved and fragile rugs.

This may be one of the other lines of divide between ruggie's and their non-ruggie friends and loved ones. No non-ruggie schemes to set aside a SADOTex (a henceforth indispensible term in our lexicon) to save ravaged woven wrecks from ending up in the dustbin of history (or, more prosaically, a nearby garbage dump).

Here's one I just couldn't let be left to its fate:



in case you can't get a clear enough view of the foundation:



Joel Greifinger

Steve Price

Hi Joel

A corollary to Hobbes' (turgid) analysis of pity is: The difference between a misfortune and a tragedy is whether it happened to you or happened to me.

Regards

Steve Price

Joel Greifinger

Steve,

Turgid? Lighten up, dude! That's downright punchy prose for the seventeenth century.

Style aside, Hobbes's analysis of pity provides a psychologically astute, if partial, explanation for why we feel pity when we see something bad happen to a good person (with whom we identify ourselves) and not when it befalls the bad guys (when we may feel satisfaction). We view ourselves as good and feel the pain that this could happen to us. And perhaps worse, to our rugs!

Joel Greifinger

Patrick Weiler

Joel,

You may want to start a separate thread devoted to "the once noble (or at least decent enough) rug".
This category deserves significant attention within the Salon.
I should know. I have enough of them.
Lloyd's victim of abuse would also find a home there.

Rachel,
Curious minds want to know.

Did you acquire your pride of lions all at once, as in an ambush of unsuspecting prey, or did you capture them individually, stalking them patiently as they entered your territory? Their obviously significant genetic defects most likely rendered them easy prey.
This group of rugs also is interesting in their horizontal format. As far as I know, only large kilims were made to be displayed horizontally.
There are also some horizontal pictorial rugs from East Turkestan.

Patrick Weiler

Lloyd Kannenberg

Hi Joel, Patrick, and All,

I neglected to distinguish weavings subject to normal wear and tear from actual victims of abuse. The tattered and threadbare aspect of one of the former reflects many years of honorable service, and its ultimate demise, while mournful, should I think be no cause for pity. On the other hand, a rug that has been cut, as if it were broadloom, to fit some peculiarly shaped room has clearly been abused, and the perpetrator of such an atrocity should be subject to the full rigor of the law.

Lloyd Kannenberg

Steve Price

Hi Lloyd

... a rug that has been cut, as if it were broadloom, to fit some peculiarly shaped room has clearly been abused, and the perpetrator of such an atrocity should be subject to the full rigor of the law.

The thought resonates with me, but it's not against the law. The USA needs a federal law against rug abuse. Look for it on the party platforms in 2012.

Regards

Steve Price

Rich Larkin

Hi Patrick,

If somebody picks up the "once noble" thread idea, I hope it answers a question I've occasionally thought about. Why is is that some worn and tattered rugs still look good, and some just look like heck? Of course, it is important what the rug had going for it at the start. I also think that worn rugs with white cotton foundations fare least well in the threadbare state, whereas rugs having foundations with some color, maybe red wefts, do better. But is there more to it?

Rich Larkin

Patrick Weiler

As a tyro rug collector, I happened upon this threadbare piece:

It mimics Khamseh or Qashqa'i weavings and I suspect it could even predate the Khamseh Confederacy. It has an almost ghostly appearance due to the significant wear. It does, however, contain a multitude of magnificent mammals.

The pile was fragile and easily worn, but it has a sturdy construction. This is the reason that the overall piece is more-or-less intact. The stunning sky-blue/cloud-white in the lower corners is inimitable. The variety of motifs is unsurpassed and the rug has a lively, crowded movement that in later pieces devolved into a boring repetitiveness.
This is what would be called a "Study Rug". It is too far gone to be valuable, but shows features of older rugs, allowing comparison to more recent pieces.
There is no way this rug could withstand floor use and it is barely even collectible. It does, however, have enough redeeming value to be kept for artistic purposes.
Patrick Weiler

Patrick Weiler

Here is a Once Noble yastik which, when placed centrally on a table and with a large object situated directly over the middle, looks very nice.

It still retains much full pile and the colors are superb - including an actually desirable orange, chocolate brown, luscious sea-foam green and brilliant bright blue. The Remaining Red was cochineal, but it has become worn nearly completely from the field. The condition of the ends is messy, but the overall picture is one of a delightful, formerly lovely yastik.

You can see the remains of the cochineal field in this close shot. It must have sparkled, with the tiny white-centered crosses all over the field. The blue-to-green transition at one end is interesting.
I suspect that this fine piece once rested at the foot of a chair to have sustained such severe wear in just the central field. Either that, or it was the demonstration rug for a vacuum cleaner salesman. It is too small to have been used by fidgety Felix for pacing around incessantly.

On the back, along each side, strips of drapery lead encased in cloth have been sewn on. This was probably to keep the edges from rolling.
I know we do not discuss market values on Turkotek, but this piece was given to me for free because it was too dilapidated to sell at the local school rummage sale. It is one piece of dubious condition which I did not pay too much for!

Patrick Weiler

Joel Greifinger

Hi Patrick,

In the tradition of your Once Noble yastik, here is a forlorn wreck of a once noble Anatolian prayer rug. From a distance and overall, it's easiest to focus on the diminishment and damage. But, as in many such cases, the enduring spark of the weaver's vision and craft can be seen by focusing in on some details. Here's the big picture:



and a bit of detail:



I'm not sure I'd put this into Rich's "still look good" category, but it goes into my "I get pleasure out of pulling it out and examining it" pile, nonetheless.

Joel Greifinger

Patrick Weiler

Joel,

We are not voting, but that piece ranks......right up there with the best of the worst. What were you thinking when you acquired it? Wait, it does have a redeeming value. There is still some full pile left!
Yet I admit it does retain some vestige of a gorious past.
Wow, this rug really embodies a lot of what rug rookies should aspire to not acquire. Rotten condition, questionable dyes, degenerate design, homely appearance. As they say, I hope you have it cleaned and burned.
Well, even an ugly dog deserves a friend. Can you get the government to grant you a stipend for keeping it off the market?
I hope you haven't shown it to your neighbors. I think there are laws against keeping things like that in a residential neighborhood.

Patrick Weiler

Joel Greifinger

Dear Mr. Weiler,

Please forgive me if I have misconstrued your intent, but I felt on initial reading that your comments subtly denigrated the nobility of my rug.
However, on reflection, I'm sure this must be a misinterpretation on my part. Perhaps it is really a disguised request (unlike the usual explicit ones ) that I send this forlorn little piece your way?

Ever aspiring to be a lackey in your bunker, I remain
Your humble servant,
Joel Greifinger

Patrick Weiler

Joel,

The waiting list of rugs with No-Bility attempting to gain a place in the exalted bunker exceeds the capacity of not only the bunker, but also of the former Explosive Ordnance Storage reliquary remote from the main residence.
Usually, rugs which do not require artificial illumination even in pitch-blackness reside there. Unfortunately, we are unable to accept your request to accommodate the questionably once-noble Anatolian prayer rug you presented.
Contrary to the lack of quality and appearance of most of the pieces which I have presented in this salon, I do have some minimum standards of acceptability. I suggest that, if you have that piece registered on your household furnishings insurance policy, you would owe your insurance company money if it should suddenly encounter a natural disaster.

Picky, Prickly Patrick

Patrick Weiler

Joel,

There really is a place for rugs with otherwise irredeemable characteristics. Lloyd alluded to this in another thread. They can be "study rugs". If they are different enough in some way, most other issues can be overlooked purely for the uniqueness or quirkiness of a given rug. Rugs which are not "collectable" for one reason or another (such as a bit of bad color or lack of suitable age) can certainly be used on the floor as (I know this seems odd) actual rugs.
Nearly all of the rugs on my floors would not be considered collectable. Even some on the wall are not great, but are examples of a type. Conditionally deprived rugs not floor-worthy are certainly acceptable. And, you never know what type of weaving may become the next great got-to-have piece.
Although your Anatolian prayer rug is probably not in that category. The design in places is too worn to be easily read, but most of it is there and some of the designs, especially the field corner motifs, are interesting.
I feel a responsibility to the Salon to be a curmudgeon, though, so I am practicing my "flaming" techniques. It can be cathartically refreshing!

Patrick Weiler

Paul Smith

Greetings!

Oh, this poor Afshar, demonstrating what Rich Larkin pointed out earlier: how a threadbare cotton foundation looks worse than a wool foundation in the same condition. It begins with wool wefts and then switches to white cotton wefts about a third of the way up from the bottom, and the image has been compromised by the image compression I used to reduce its size, but that adds to the utter hopelessness of this sad rug. This one has a delusional element...I was originally hoodwinked on this by on-line images shot from an angle that made the pile look much better than was actually the case, but then I deluded myself into a romantic reading of this rug, that the weaver began it while still a nomad, then moved to the village and started in with the cotton wefts and lower-quality wool for the pile, which did not wear as well.




I'm not sure this one was ever noble, since there is something in the drawing that changes once she got into the cotton wefts...it does seem like things are squeezed and truncated, but I did like the little triangular beasts that are peppered throughout the field.

Paul

Patrick Weiler

Paul,

Dinie has a magic marker you could use to spruce up that rug.

I do not know if wool or cotton was a more expensive material in the environs of Kirman over a hundred years ago, but when the rug had full pile, it wouldn't have been an appearance issue because the foundation didn't show. The weaver may have just used material that was available. I think your rug was made commercially, either at a weaver's home possibly with provided materials and design, or at a weaving factory or school.
There are some Anatolian prayer rugs with the foundation in the field a color more similar to the pile in that area and the rest of the rug a different color altogether. Our assumption is that the weaver knew it would look better when the pile wore down, but it is also possible that it would have made the back appear better even with full pile. It is interesting that you say the pile in the area of the cotton foundation is also different.

I think it is a great design with good color and contrast. Any collector would be envious to have such a wonderful thing.

(is that a little better, with not so much "flaming"?)
Of course Joel might wonder why I am so effusive about this Afshar when I was so demeaning to his Anatolian prayer rug.

There is no reason in particular....





This was also an internet purchase, but it looks a bit better in hand than the photos showed. Yes, it is missing at the ends and some of the selvedge is ragged, along with some wear in the field. I was concerned that the field wear would detract from the appearance, but it does not detract enough to banish this piece to the Burn Pile.
These Afshar pieces with depressed warps give them a sound, solid foundation, but the wool is not as heavy as Bidjar rugs and when it is worn, the warp and weft show through. This one is good enough to put on the wall, but probably not for the floor, unless one is careful with the vacuum.

Patrick Weiler

Rich Larkin

Hi Patrick,

About Paul's rug, you said,

Murray Eiland (in the 1979 version of his Comprehensive Guide) said that this design had changed little over the previous 100 years. Considering that elements of the Afshari tribe were removed to the Kirman area from around Azerbaijan, one would think this design came with them from there. It certainly resonates with many designs from that general region. Are you suggesting nevertheless that commercial weavers from greater Kirman would be weaving that design from cartoons? Or merely that the generally "authentic" design of that character would be requested of Afshari cottage weavers, or other weavers that weren't necessarily Afshari? Or something else?

Rich Larkin

P. S.: Incidentally, that aspect of the red foundations showing through the deep midnight blue ground of the somewhat worn Afshari rug is a familiar look. It beats the drearier look of the tired white peaking through, as on Paul's, no offense intended.

Steve Pendleton

Anyone ever use a threadbare rug PILE-SIDE DOWN because it looked better that way? As the pile side starts showing way too much foundation, some pieces look better back-side up, kept in use as ersatz kilims. Just a thought. But somewhere on this board, someone has a confession to make.

Once I saw a modern Zollenvari-style Gabbeh in a hotel lobby with the pile side down, tacked down on all four sides. You got the impression the hotel had bought the rug as stylish "tribal" decor only to have their lawyer tell them the inch-thick rug was a tripping hazard. So they nailed it down, smooth side up, to get some value from the cost. Strange but true.

Steve Pendleton

Rich Larkin

Hi Steve,

Good point. Of course, once you've turned the thing over, you know you're at the end of the line, which can be depressing. Not as depressing as it would be to have that winged victory rug of Patrick's right side up, though.

There's a caveat about turning tired old rugs pile side down. As we all know, walking on the back of a rug is a method of knocking the dust out of it. Putting a rug pile side down on a wood floor can leave a shadow on the floor from the fine grit that will never go away (this side of a refinishing job). Trust me, I've been there.

Rich Larkin

Steve Pendleton

>you know you're at the end of the line
Yes, the backs of the knots would provide a less durable walking surface than the pile. But the premise is the rug's shot anyway, so extra use is free, the last step before pillows.

Weave would make a difference. In double-wefted construction with strong warp depression, the backs of the knots dominate the surface, which looks presentable, like a needlepoint. (Once I carried a repair project all rolled up into a needlepoint shop to match colors. The cute little old ladies there went ziNG! like startled bunnies in a Tex Avery cartoon. They thought it was a great-big needlepoint. True story.)

--Steve Pendleton

Patrick Weiler

Rich,

Your earlier post noted that Eiland says:

"this design had changed little over the previous 100 years. Considering that elements of the Afshari tribe were removed to the Kirman area from around Azerbaijan, one would think this design came with them from there. It certainly resonates with many designs from that general region. Are you suggesting nevertheless that commercial weavers from greater Kirman would be weaving that design from cartoons? Or merely that the generally "authentic" design of that character would be requested of Afshari cottage weavers, or other weavers that weren't necessarily Afshari? Or something else?"

There are many of these "Afshar" rugs of this design still remaining. The design does seem to have sprung up fully formed and continued to be made for decades, with incremental changes. It seems to have been a commercially successful design, so it was either commissioned or copied independently by town or village weavers for many years.
These two rugs probably were woven close to that 100 years ago period, which would have been 1879. I doubt they were woven in Azerbaijan, though. One possibly older design feature of this type of rug is the rounded or domed appearance of the three "turrets" at the top and bottom of the red field. This projects an almost architectural appearance to the design. Later copies are more geometric in appearance. The open blue field gives one the impression of either a mosque interior or a courtyard garden. Both types of buildings have expansive, open interior areas. Some of these Afshar rugs have a white field. The interior decoration is different in many of them, but most later versions have a vase at either end, perhaps giving credence to the garden-design possibility.
I have not done a study on the other motifs in this type of rug, but you can see that the borders are quite similar between my rug and Paul's. And the motif running along the top and bottom of the field and along each side of the red central panel is also the same. This perhaps tree or phallic motif has been used by Khamseh/Shiraz weavers in later pieces also. Even the alternating motif of a shield with a large W inside has followed this field design to the Shiraz rugs from the first half of the 20th century.
You can see a copy of this in the salon. It is shown in the thread "A certain ugly sub-species". The "tree" has become stubby, but the complete design, including the shield with the W, is still evident.
The field interior design in my rug shows a design familiar to Luri weavings, with the latch-hook guls and their interesting diamond-cluster interior motif. The cluster could be a version of the pomegranate and when simplified becomes the smaller version as seen in the two smaller latch-hook guls at the sides of the two larger main guls.
This smaller diamond-cluster motif is almost exclusive to Luri weavings. It could also be a very crude version of the endless-knot design. Many rug motifs have ambiguous or alternate versions.
Even I can be ambiguous or alternate at times.


Patrick Weiler

Chuck Wagner

Hi,

Well, I've been wanting to launch a Baluchatekattack for quite some time, and our beloved Baluch weavers - through their use of materials that wear down to the nub in (relatively speaking) no time at all - have provided some material.

While not entirely threadbare, this one is no longer suited for floor use. This was clearly visible when I bought it (an internet purchase) but, like Joel, I have a weakness for rugs with enough character to deserve rescue. Toward the bottom, there is an area that still has pile almost 2-3 mm long (the lighter brown bit), but in most places it's down to 1 mm or less. Because the pile is quite low, the details of the design actually stand out rather nicely. The white bits are worked with single yarn and provide a nice accent to the more traditional field design.

If I've posted this one before, feel free to give me an e-slap - I don't remember showing it before.

The whole thing:



The bit that still has some pile:


Nice detail work on the ends:


Still has enough pile for color, but only if never used again:



Regards,
Chuck Wagner

Patrick Weiler

Chuck,

I find very little that is ugly or odd about that rug. The ends are admirably appealing, the design is unusual, the white border is bold and the condition is acceptable.
OK, the pile is a bit worn, the top white border is muddy, the orange is questionable, the design is derivative, the drawing is crude, the age is unacceptable and the owner is sketchy.
Wait, that last bit about the owner is "ad hominem". I recant that part.
I really do not know HOW sketchy you are. Anyone owning a Baluch, though, is suspect.
(Sorry, the overwhelming political advertisements are beginning to get to me )
Nonetheless, any Baluchatekattack deserves a swift reprisal!!

Patrick Weiler

Chuck Wagner

Hey Pat,

Well, I agree, I don't think it's ugly either. But that wasn't the requirement for this thread - this is the forlorn (or getting there) thread. One of my top -personal- criteria is: nice workmanship. I like well done detail, and this one fits the bill. I've already proven that I'm willing to get outside the usual collectors envelope for nice work. That ridiculous hunting rug in the "Ducks" thread is exceptionally well made, for example...

Chuck

Brock Kaluznick

I discovered and watched this carpet for months. I didnt need another carpet at home and only purchased out of need, mostly at auction. There was something about this one that called to me. It was in service at a local European antique shop, was on the floor and extremely dirty. When I was finally able to make the deal I needed and brought this carpet home and rolled it out, I was very pleasantly surprised how much more I liked it on my floor. I hadn't seen anything like it in my decorator style carpet purchasing mode. Always being driven to know more about items such as this, I launched into a research project around this carpet that has lead me to my presence on the Turkotek Website. Though very thin in pile, threadbare in spots, it now holds the premier position in my growing collection, though I have acquired others that have piqued my interest equally since.

This, I believe, is a Qashqa'i Shekarlu. Date............I think it could be as early as 1850, not later than about 1880. It's life on the floor is over!

Rich Larkin

Hi Brock,

Those proposed dates are ambitiously early, but that is some rug.

Rich Larkin

Steve Pendleton

>Shekarlu
Well the borders and colors are right. Qashqai, certainly. The Shekarlu weave isn't terribly robust, so it's not surprising it would show some wear. Nice piece.

You don't post size. A lot of Shekarlu are about 5ft by 8ft (1.5 meter x 2.5 meter). Yours look bigger than that, truly a carpet. I tend to think "big" implies an organized village or workshop production. I don't know how they were produced and don't dispute your attribution--just wondering how big these guys get.

/ Steve Pendleton /

Brock Kaluznick

It is 5x8 dead on. The angle makes it look larger. The field has proved to be a challenge to try to link to anything I have found. But forlorn is a great word to describe this carpet's life when I found it. It has given me a lot since it arrived. I am interested in dating, I don"t have time now to go through the research that takes me to mid-nineteenth. But as you all know I am a neophyte collector trying to find the recognize the clues, never mind find them.

Patrick Weiler

Brock,
Could we get a closer look at that lovely Berber underneath your fine Shekarlu?

Chuck,
"That ridiculous hunting rug in the "Ducks" thread is exceptionally well made, for example..."
Have I got a rug for you!

Steve, you said:
"Yours look bigger than that"
I assume you were referring to me.....

Brock, you said:
"I am interested in dating"
I recommend giving up any interest you may have in collecting rugs if you intend to have any success in dating...


Patrick Weiler