Steve Price

Hi All

Juvals with six Salor turreted guls in the field are nearly always attributed to Tekke nowadays. For awhile they were thought be Salor; current thinking is that the Salor only produced turreted gul juvals with three major guls and that the Tekke examples with only three such guls are relatively early weavings. That is, that the turreted gul was originally specific to the Salor, who made juvals with three of them in the field; that this was adopted by the Tekke early in the 19th century, who soon evolved it into a six gul format that degenerated rather dramatically toward the end of the 19th and into the early 20th century.

Some, beginning with Moshkova (I think; I don't have the reference handy at the moment), believed that the turreted gul was exclusively Salor property that was taken by the Tekke almost as a trophy in the early 19th century. Pierre's essay reminds us that Salor and Tekke coexisted (the Dashgi Confederation) for several centuries, at least. I wonder if renewed speculation on how and when it was adopted by the Tekke might be worthwhile. I have nothing much to contribute to the matter, just wanted to raise the topic.

Regards

Steve Price

Pierre Galafassi

Hi Steve,
I am much too ignorant to contribute to this thread. However, with your blessing, I would like to jump on the band wagon and add a few more questions about the Salor:
What was the rationale for the premises mentioned in your post:
- why did the experts initially attribute all Mary guls to the Salor?
- why did they eventually change their mind and what made them think the Tekke and not the Saryk (for example) were involved early?

Then, can anybody help me curing an old frustration: Everybody speaks of a particular Salor red. Since I never met in person a true certified Salor rug and since colors in rug book pictures can’t be trusted, I would like to hear from you guys what makes this red so different.

Best regards
Pierre

Steve Price

Hi Pierre

It will come as no surprise to learn I don't have definitive answers to your questions, but here are my thoughts.

1. I think the notion that the turreted gul is a "propriety" Salor motif goes at least as far back as Moshkova; I'll check that this evening.
2. My guess is that because by about 1835 the Tekke occupied the territory formerly belonging to the Salor, many rug-writers were led to believe that the Salor were defeated by the Tekke (rather than by the Persian army) in the early 1830's. The turreted gul does appear to have entered the Tekke motif lexicon around that time, if the conventional wisdom on date attribution of Tekke juvals is correct. And who knows? It might be.
3. My relatively limited experience with really nice old Salor pieces is that the colors and tactile qualities are astonishing. I don't know how to describe the red verbally, but it is very red, as opposed to having blue or yellow overtones.

Regards

Steve Price

Richard Larkin

Hi Pierre, et al,

I will ratify Steve's comments on these points. My experience with serious old (apparently) Salor pieces is limited, and the only examples I clearly recall seeing or (to a limited extent) handling are some that were on display in exhibitions at the Textile Museum in the past. They included at least one main carpet with the characteristic rounded gul; and juvals with the turreted gul drawn with very elegant proportions. The "weave balance" (if I may borrow a very useful Marla Mallet term) of all of these pieces seemed uniform and imparted a very distinctive and impressive handling quality to them. I've always assumed it was this connection that was the basis for putting the two weaving formats with the two gul designs together; and that the very secure drawing of the turreted gul found on the juvals was the basis for nominating the Salor as the original proprietors of that design. As for the red, it is, as Steve says, very red. My recollection is that the torbas tend to be a deeper, darker color than the mains.

Rich Larkin

Jim Allen

Not all Salor rugs and bags have red backgrounds. Some of the oldest have a purple with maybe a hint of red in it and the Russians have a couple of Salor chuvals that have virtually brown backgrounds. The oldest Salor main carpet I ever saw was plain fantastic purple, an incredible hue. Heckshure said it C-14 dated to the 15th century. I didn't see any paperwork on the test. There were many interesting tertiary designs in that rug. In fact I would hazard the guess that the more tertiary designs in Salor mains the older the rug is. Just a guess now! I would describe the best Salor red as that of highly oxygenated blood squirting out of a big artery. It rivets your attention just like a real blood does.

Steve Price

Hi Jim

Your description of the great red that the Salor used looking like arterial blood is right on. It hadn't occurred to me, but that's the color.

Thanks.

Steve Price

Pierre Galafassi

Thanks Jim and Steve, I can see the shade quite clearly now (although sectioning a femoral artery hurts!!): The red is very saturated, brighter and much less yellow than the usual brick-red of madder-alum?

IMHO such a shade hints at using for the dyeing operation a rather pure water, soft (no calcium) and uncontaminated by iron. I doubt that it can be water from any of the major rivers, all described as muddy by travelers. The Amu-darya water analysis for example shows hardness (200-500 ppm) and some iron. Dyeing was perhaps performed in spring with water from temporary rain pools using selected very white wool.
Regards
Pierre

Steve Price

Hi Pierre

I know this is blasphemous, but another possibility is that this Salor red dye came from someplace else. Textiles weren't the only goods that traveled on the Silk Road.

Regards

Steve Price

Pierre Galafassi

Hi Steve,
Blasphemous perhaps, but still possible, especially if you are hinting at dyed wool "imported" from another place where water would be better suited. After all, indigo-dyed wool was mostly purchased by the weavers too.
There is another possibility still, the use of tin as a co-mordant with alum. It does give clearer reds too.
Regards
Pierre
PS: It would be terrific if a Turkoteker with a talent for geology could tell us whether there are areas in the Transcapian region where water can be expected to be soft and iron-free. It must not necessarily be all limestone, chalk and red clay in Turkmen country.

Rachel Armstrong

Hi all,
This discussion reminded me that I have an old juval (or chuval) tucked away in my storage space. My research led me to believe that it is a Salor piece, but is it?
The juval is fairly old, I think probably late 19th century, and quite worn. The colors on the front are faded but the back is still nice. Jim mentioned the purple cast of some earlier Salor juvals and this one does tend toward the cool end of the spectrum, although the red is very warm, almost a red-orange. There is also an interesting repair to one corner.
Here are the photos:











So is my original research correct? Any insights are appreciated!

Thanks,
Rachel

Steve Price

Hi Rachel

My guess is that you've got a late 19th century Tekke juval. It doesn't have the profusion of borders that seem to be characteristic of Tekke torbas and juvals woven around 1900, nor do the major guls look typical of Tekke work of the period. But the palette (which includes what looks on my monitor like a "hot" red) and crowding of the motifs in the elem all point to that attribution.

Regards

Steve Price

Rich Larkin

Hi Rachel,

That piece is probably not Salor. Most would probably attribute it to Tekke weavers. Many of the juvals with the turreted gul that do not have square proportions (i. e., slightly flattened) are thought to be Tekke, though they are often labeled Salor in the literature. In addition, you will note in the details of the drawing there is some imprecision, such as in the figure at the center of the gul, or the double hooks, projecting in or out. In contrast, what are thought to be classic Salors feature extraordinarily good drawing.

That purple color is not the shade of the purplish Salors. They are deeper, darker and more saturated. This juval may have have been chemically treated, resulting in the washed out look of the front. The red may be one of the earlier synthetics that became widely used in Turkoman rugs. Your estimate of the age is probably about right, or the piece may be a bit after 1900.

Rich Larkin

Steve Price

Hi Pierre

There is now a post on another rug discussion forum with information on what I'll call (for convenience) the "Salor red". A dealer friend informed the author that the Salor used madder with a very alkaline desert plant in the dye bath that affected the color and made it bloom. Neither the plant nor how his friend knew that the Salor used it is revealed. Just as an aside, the disdain with which that author formerly viewed information obtained from dealers can be seen here.

I guess we can add this to the column of reasons why it's plausible to think that the Salor dyed wool this color themselves. On the other hand, this person has, within the past couple of weeks, told the world in no uncertain terms that:
1. Yomud and Yomut are two different Turkmen groups, a fact recognized by scholars. The scholars are unidentified.
2. Turkmen are not nomads, and may never have been nomads.
3. The Uzboy is not, and never was, a river.
4. People who disagree with me get banned from Turkotek. Actually, it's more difficult to get banned from Turkotek than from eBay, although the person this is about has the distinction of having achieved both.
5. You (Pierre) use the word "tribe" improperly. Anthropologists are reluctant to use the term at all because most people picture “black Africans hopping around a pot in a Tarzan movie”. What an interesting fantasy, especially with reference to ruggies!

About 2 years ago, in his (now defunct) site, Turkotek Watch, he solemnly informed the world that a review I had written of an auction at Sotheby's was done in retribution for some corrections Paul Mushak had made to errors that I published. He neglected to mention that my review was written about a year before Mushak's (excellent) article. You can see a little summary of that exchange here.

Regards

Steve Price

Filiberto Boncompagni

I see also that the guy in question challenged me directly about the kufic border when I wrote that “the Kufic border was inspired by the writing of Allah’s name but it didn’t represent it because walking on that word is forbidden.”

That because I wasn’t aware of the “16th century Indjoudjian Inscribed Spiral Arabesque Niche Rug” with “Koran Verse 255 of Sura 2” with the name of Allah in it.

Of course I had never heard of it, but the rug sounded like - and indeed is - a prayer rug.

Somebody who pretends to have the rug-world at his fingertips should be aware that prayer rugs were supposed to be used for praying on them NOT for walking on them, so inscribing Allah’s name was quite appropriate.
Doing that on a carpet designated for the floor, instead, should be considered rather blasphemous.

Then again, this guy is so full of… ahem… himself

Filiberto

Pierre Galafassi

[quote=Steve Price1]Hi Pierre

There is now a post on another rug discussion forum with information on what I'll call (for convenience) the "Salor red". A dealer friend informed the author that the Salor used madder with a very alkaline desert plant in the dye bath that affected the color and made it bloom. Neither the plant nor how his friend knew that the Salor used it is revealed.

Hi Steve, Filiberto and all,

The addition of alkali is not really a scoop but rather a very old trick, known by about every semi-knowledgeable home dyer using madder/alum. A fortiori, even the most moronic Turkmen dyer must have known it too.



The ashes of many plants are very alkaline. One of the most efficient desert plants, from this point of view, is Salsola kali (saltwort), a camel thorn which can be found near many settlements in carpet country.


I would guess that the ubiquitous desert bush Saksaoul, (Turkmen’s major fuel, with camel dung), has alkaline ashes too.

However, the alkaline ashes are not added to the dye bath, as stated by the informant, but after dyeing, in the rinsing bath. It does indeed change the shade somewhat and it is likely that the Salor rinsed some of their dyed wool with it too.

Best regards
Pierre

Pierre Galafassi

Hi Rich,
I agree with you, the mottled shade hints at a chemical treatment.

Best
Pierre