April 30th, 2010, 10:23 PM   1
Paul Smith
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Middle Amu Darya Chodor

Pierre--

Thank you for sorting through all this conflicting and complex history with clarity and elegance; I very much appreciate your research and analysis. I have a small question about the Chodor. Some writers claim that a group of Chodor went south into the Middle Amu Darya region in the mid-1700s, which explains some of the elements in the carpet weaving and design pool of that region. I noticed that the Chodor are not shown making that southern journey in your essay and wondered whether you found any evidence for that.

Regards...

Paul
May 1st, 2010, 03:47 AM  2
Pierre Galafassi
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MAD Chodors

Hi Paul,
I could not find any mention of Chodor settled on the banks of the middle Amu-darya, nor elsewhere in the Bokhara khanate, neither in Bregel, nor in Woods. Nor can I remember of any such information in reports of 19th century visitors.
However, it is perfectly possible that a few aouls of Chodor had existed there. The highly volatile Turkmen had no shortage of excellent reasons for moving far from their main territory (for example out of reach of a vengeful Khivan khan or a greedy taxman), as shown by the cases mentioned by Abbott (Yomud aouls in Pendj-deh) or by Woods (Ersari, part of Charshanga clan, again in Pendj-deh).
A secondary source, Moshkova (Carpets of the People of Central Asia. Page 257), claims that the Chodors were involved early in commercial market relations, supplying among others the Bokhara khanate. If true, this could be a valid reason for a small colony there. She also mentions, without precision, an important southeast-bound migration of Chodor clans. To Khiva of course, but perhaps she meant further southeast. Anyway, there is no indication of the source.

Do you judge convincing the theory of Chodor influence on some MAD rugs? Is it mainly based on motifs, structure or coloration? (The latter would seem rather hard to believe).
Best regards

Pierre
May 1st, 2010, 01:05 PM   3
Paul Smith
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Pierre--

I must underscore anything I say on this topic with the caveat that I am barely knowledgeable and am mainly speculating, but I do have the little mat, below, that I have posted here before. I am under the impression that little mats like this are not part of the traditional Chodor repertoire, but do turn up in Ersari and Tekke weaving. It is asymmetrically knotted, open right, and definitely has traditional Chodor colors (including a pale yellow in places but no blue whatsoever) and design elements , 40" x 28". My guess is that it's late 19th-c, but of course, who knows...

I've also just purchased a stunning main carpet that looks Ersari but has various ertmen gul variants; alas, it hasn't arrived so I can't post images yet. It is apparently some sort of Middle Amu Darya rug, but I'm not sure that the presence of ertmen guls necessarily proclaims a Chodor influence.

The article that comes to mind talking about a small Chodor group in the Middle Amu Darya region is Kurt Munkacsi's "Dividing the Chodor" which is on Tom Cole's site...http://www.tcoletribalrugs.com/article51CHODOR.html. I don't know what his sources were for this particular assertion, however...

Paul
May 1st, 2010, 03:24 PM  4
Pierre Galafassi
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Hi Paul,
Indeed in his article Kurt Munkaksi mentions some Chodors being exiled to the middle Amu darya by Nadir Shah in 1740.
The source cited by Munkaksi as base for his maps and comments is W.W Wood, an historian who wrote an excellent, well documented essay on Turkmen ethno-history in Vanishing Jewels. I have not found this mention about the Chodor in it yet, but on page 35 there is a footnote about the Arabachi (somehow related to the Chodor since they were part of the same confederation during the 16th century): "..after the conquest by Nadir Shah in 1740, a group of Arabachi reportedly migrated to the area of Charjuy where they still live today...". Wood cites two Russian historians Markov and Vinnikov.
Also Yuri Bregel (Map 37, p 75) mentions the presence of a small Arabachi population on the middle Amu-darya.

Whether Arabachi and Chodor rugs show enough similarities to make Munkaksi's "licence poétique" (as we say in France) acceptable is far beyond my knowledge.
Best regards
Pierre
May 4th, 2010, 11:44 AM  5
Kurt Munkacsi
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William Wood and the Choudur

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre Galafassi View Post
Hi Paul,
I could not find any mention of Chodor settled on the banks of the middle Amu-darya, nor elsewhere in the Bokhara khanate, neither in Bregel, nor in Woods. Nor can I remember of any such information in reports of 19th century visitors..........
Pierre
Hello Pierre - quoted from William Wood (its not Woods) in VANISHING JEWELS page 34.

"To the main body of Choudur in Khorezm should be added a small group which live near Charjuy on the Amu Darya. These Choudur apparently came to the area from Khorezm either during Abu'l-Ghazi's wars against the Turkmen in the seventeenth century, or after Nadir Shah's conquest of Khiva in 1740."
Citation given by Wood for the above (his note#69)
"Cf., Vinnikov, pp. 63-65; and Markov, Ocherk, pp. 64-65."

You are right, in that, Bregel does not make any specific reference to a group Choudur around Charjuy on the Amu Darya. He does make a vague reference to "Several small tribes were settled in the middle course of the Amu Darya, in the region of Charjuy........" page #74, paragraph #37)

Perhaps there is some small unknown Choudur subgroup that he and Wood are referring to.

One fact that can't be debated- there is a small group of Chodor weavings that are substantially different from other Chodor work, both in pallet and design. Its not unreasonable to think they were made in a different location. A Middle Amu Darya origin makes a nice supposition.
May 5th, 2010, 12:30 AM   6
Paul Smith
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A Middle Amu Darya Mystery

Pierre, Kurt, et al...

With this main carpet I've just acquired I hope to demonstrate a little potential Chodor design influence in the Middle Amu Darya and at the same time get any insights from you more knowledgeable folks about this unusual rug. In palette, structure (asymmetrical open right), and handle it would seem to be a Middle Amu Darya "Ersari" rug of significant age, but there are those traditional-looking ertmen guls there, well, traditional bird heads and whatnot, but they are quartered...Has anyone ever seen quartered ertmen guls before? And they do seem to be flying in several different formations from one end to the other, but I know better than to make too much of that...


This next shot is shows the colors a bit more accurately...


Here is a shot of the back...


I don't know if this drawing indicates presence of actual Chodor people, since a few Chodor main carpets could have inspired those wild Ersari gals to take on a new design, but it raises interesting questions.

Paul
May 5th, 2010, 03:14 AM   7
Pierre Galafassi
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Default

Hi Kurt,

You are right, this note in Wood’s paper escaped my attention.
Anyway, the presence of a small group of Chodor in the middle Amu-darya area is possible given the Turkmen restlessness. It would seem the right thing to do, for any clan in conflict with the Khivan ruler or with the main body of its tribe, to seek refuge on Bokhara territory.
Bregel does not mention Chodor, but mentions by name a pretty large number of other small Turkmen groups, in particular on his Map p 75. Once relocated on the MAD, a small carpet-weaving clan could indeed be influenced by its close neighbors, frequency of intermarriages being but one reason.

Paul, your rug is most interesting. I can’t remember having seen quartered Ertment guls before, although it would seem rather coherent with other Turkmen guls.
Best regards
Pierre
May 5th, 2010, 08:56 AM   8
Steve Price
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Hi Paul

The palette on yours says Ersari, loud and clear, and I've seen lots of rugs and bags with Ertmann guls that nearly everyone would attribute to the Ersari. But I don't recall seeing a quartered variant of the Ertmann gul.

It's a very cool rug, and almost certainly illustrates a Chodor influence or inspiration on an Ersari weaving.

Regards

Steve Price
May 6th, 2010, 11:22 AM   9
Kurt Munkacsi
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A Middle Amu Darya Mystery - Chub Bash

Hello Paul - that is a really excellent rug, you were very lucky to find it. Weavings with this Ertman Gul variation are generally attributed to the Chub Bash. According to Wegner(1) the Chub Bash were possibly descendants of the Chodor. Eiland(2) has a reference to the Chub Bash and says he met a Turkmen in Afghanistan claiming to be a member of the Chub Bash. Saunders(3) also has some further thoughts about them.
The most common Chub Bash weavings using the Ertman Gul I have run across are large trappings. I've attached a photo of one that appeared on RugRabbit last year and sold to an american collector. I don't recall ever having seen one of their main carpets using Ertman Guls before. Usually they use Tauk-Noska or Temirchin Guls. A nice old example of a Temirchin Gul main rug can be found on my CD publication BIGGER IS BETTER(4)





(1) Wegner, D. H. G. "The Rugs of Nomads and Farmers in Afghanistan." Weavings of the Tribes in Afghanistan. p. 4, Wash, D.C., 1972 .
(2) Eiland, Murray. Oriental Rugs, Third Edition. Boston, 1981, p. 230 & fig. 209
(3) Saunders, Peter. Tribal Visions. Novato, CA, 1980, pp. 66-67
(4) Munkacsi, K., d'Heurle, D. & Saunders, P. Bigger is Better, Main Carpets of the Turkmen. New York, 2003, pp. 53-54
May 6th, 2010, 01:05 PM   10
Chuck Wagner
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Greetings all,

Here's another - not quite as impressive as Kurt's example w/respect to color, but a pleasant addition to my torba heap. It's quite difficult to get the red-brown right and still see the deep greenish-blue. Look at closeup number 2 for the best representation:

The full monty:


Some closeups:






FYI, I just purchased a very long torba that was listed as Ersari but has a design and color palette (white field) that make me wonder if it might be Chodor. If it gets here while the Salon is still active I'll post some "live" pics; otherwise I'll put an image in from the seller's folder and solicit opinions.

Regards,
Chuck Wagner
May 7th, 2010, 05:50 PM   11
Paul Smith
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Kurt, Pierre, Chuck, et al--

I very much appreciate your helping me come up with a more accurate attribution for this carpet. When someone like myself looks at a piece and thinks it's unusual, that isn't really saying much. The closest design I have seen in searching in books and around the internet the last few days that approaches the quartered ertmen is a fragment attributed to the Chub Bash that has what looks like a tauk noshka gul with one of these ertmen-esque birds in each quarter. The fragment is apparently being offered for sale on a popular rug site so I can't post it, alas...

Thanks

Paul

Last edited by Paul Smith; May 7th, 2010 at 06:23 PM.
May 8th, 2010, 01:52 PM   12
Frederik May
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Hi Paul,

this rug is so nice. Congratulations! I must say that I am jealous. I just found one similar piece in the literature. It is in Antique Turkmen Carpets IV (Elmby), picture No. 47.

Regards

Frederik
May 8th, 2010, 11:36 PM   13
Paul Smith
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Hi Frederik--

Thanks! I feel very fortunate to have been at the right place at the right time; it is a pretty stunning rug in person... I don't have access to Elmby...can anyone post an image of #47 from volume IV?

Paul
May 9th, 2010, 08:54 AM   14
Frederik May
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Hi Paul,

here is the elmby piece with structural analysis... and by the way I do prefer your rug:It has nicer colors.





Regards

Frederik
May 9th, 2010, 10:51 AM  15
Chuck Wagner
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Paul, Kurt,

Would you please post closeups of the backs of your pieces so we c an get a better feel for the structure(s) ?

Regards,
Chuck
May 9th, 2010, 12:59 PM   16
Paul Smith
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Hi Chuck--

Happy to oblige! I had to figure out a few icons and functions on my camera, a stimulating challenge for me...





Frederik, thanks for posting that image. That indeed is the closest analog I have seen.

Regards,

Paul
May 9th, 2010, 08:27 PM  17
Chuck Wagner
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Paul,

Thanks. Hmmm, interesting - that looks familiar. Fat doubled yarn, high angle twist, light gray wool wefts, pleasant peachy pale orange :






...which is from this piece...




Some better shots of the front:








Not sure what (if any) interpretation to cast on this, but I'm mulling it over..

Regards,
Chuck
May 9th, 2010, 10:50 PM   18
Rich Larkin
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Hi Paul, et al,

That sure is a good looking rug. I find it interesting that the example from Elmby, which you consider the closest example, is called “Beshir” in that catalog. Meanwhile, Steve is identifying the colors as shouting “Ersari,” loud and clear, a view in which I concur. Finally, you called the piece “Middle Amu Darya” in the tag line of the thread. I don’t disagree with that, either. It is worth remembering that these terms are just so many catch-alls for rugs that we aren’t able to place all that firmly in time or context, as much as we act as though we can. For years, I was of the opinion that there was a great deal of overlap between the “Ersari” label and the “Beshir” label. The literature confirms it. When the “M. A. D.” rubric came along, it wasn’t clear whether it improved things, or just complicated the confusion.

I posted a comment from Richard Wright in the companion thread here, suggesting the fluidity of the real facts of the Turkoman history, and the elusiveness of reliable connections between that history and the rugs we study now. One can never go too far wrong in consulting Wright, a man who takes nothing for granted in rugdom, on these matters; and the connection to his site is conveniently here in the T’Tek links. I recommend him highly for a regular dose of salts to keep us honest.

There are several threads archived here about Middle Amu Darya rugs, though I can’t say I understand just what makes a particular rug fall under that rubric. Here are a couple.

http://www.turkotek.com/misc_00022/amu_darya.htm

http://www.turkotek.com/mini_salon_00013/ms13_t1.htm

Congrats on the find.

Rich Larkin
May 10th, 2010, 01:14 PM  19
Kurt Munkacsi
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another one

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Wagner
Paul, Kurt,

Would you please post closeups of the backs of your pieces so we c an get a better feel for the structure(s) ?

Regards,
Chuck
Hi Chuck can't get a back scan of the one I posted but here's another one.

Chub Bash(?) Trapping (#1369)
First half of the 19th Century
69" x 24"
Amu Darya region(?)
Warp - Goat hair(?), mixed browns, natural, z2s. No warp depression.
Weft - Wool, light brown, s spun, two shoots, one over, one under.
Knot - Asymmetrical, open right, wool, two-ply.
8 vertical / in. x 8 horizontal / in. = 64 sq. / in.
Sides - Flat selvage of three body warps. The weft doubles back on itself. There are remains of apricot overcasting.
Ends - Original not extant.
Colors - (6) Medium red, dark blue, light green, golden yellow, ivory, dark brown.





Regards,
Kurt
May 10th, 2010, 01:33 PM   20
Paul Smith
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Hi Rich--

I found the categories particularly challenging with the rugs I've posted in this thread because they seemed to exhibit characteristics of more than one group (though I think the first rug is more confusing that regard than the main carpet). One source of confusion for a relative newcomer such as myself is that the terms have not only applications to the rugs and people in question but also historical use among Western rug aficionados. Ideally these would line up with precision but, alas, it is not to be. In addition, deriving a meaning or significance for borrowing another tribe's designs as was apparently done here is intriguing and mysterious and ultimately beyond us, I suppose. I guess I liked the Middle Amu Darya label in this case because its geographical focus accommodates all the influences I was seeing in these particular weavings. I think it is significant that in our responses thus far to Pierre's excellent survey of literature we have focused on one area that seems to be too convoluted to sort out.

As for congratulations, I should say that I was fortunate to have the advice of one more knowledgeable than myself when I acquired these pieces. I was thus able to support my crazed enthusiasm for these two with the confirmation that I wasn't entirely insane. That Turkotek often functions as a liaison between experts and newcomers in this way makes it a very valuable resource. Thanks to everyone...

Paul
May 12th, 2010, 12:42 PM   21
Richard Larkin
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Hi Kurt, et al,

That's a sensational torba in my book, condition notwithstanding. Six colors go a long way in it. The following example isn't quite in the same league, but not too bad anyway.









I've posted it to make the point that this general gul scheme seems to appear in a number of weave types. To my eye, Paul's outstanding rug in weave and palette falls within a familiar group generally considered to be Ersari. Kurt's piece and the one I've posted above can be viewed as closer cousins, from the same standpoint. The warps in mine are also hair, though of a lighter hue than his mixed light and dark. The other structural particulars are consistent as well. In parts of the one I've posted, the wefts alternate colors between rows, as indicated below:



I have posted this torba in the past, primarily to seek comments on a phenomenon I thought unusual, though it didn't engender much comment at the time. It is that the pile yarn in the red field is in at least three, arguably four distinct shades of red. They appear to have been intentionally selected by the weaver to give a horizontally striped character to the field. It can be seen most clearly in the diagonal stripe of red lying between the stepped outlines of the two guls in the second image, above, though the usage is consistent throughout the weaving. It seems to me to go beyond ordinary abrash on account of the consistent variation from row to row.

Besides the colors shown, there is also sparing use of what appears to be silk in a very corrosive lilac shade. Counting that, and calling the red four different shades (they're quite distinct), the torba has eleven different colors; yet, from any distance, it seems to me less multi-colored than Kurt's piece with six colors.

Anyway, the larger point is that there appears to be a variety of weaving sources (presumably, in addition to the Chaudor) that were prone to implement this gul with the repeating rosettes (?) within the ertmen frame; as well as the ertmen model itself. We can guess that they flowed down in the waves referred to in Pierre's summary. The question is whether the surviving products will ever be matched up successfully with the actual weaving groups.

Rich Larkin
May 14th, 2010, 05:32 AM  22
Martin Andersen
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Hi Paul
just a quick congrat from here - that sure is a wonderful rug, so much life in it (but I get a bit scared seeing it laying on the floor, steep gently on it before you wallhang it)

And thanks to Pierre for this very clear walkthrough of the complicated geographic history of the Turkmen.

best Martin
May 14th, 2010, 11:56 AM   23
Paul Smith
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what about putting a wonderful rug on the floor?

Hi Martin--

Thanks, and I will be very careful, but I do have a floor plan for this rug. I am a little hesitant, but I will see if it passes the Turko-test. That floor is in a recording studio and I now have two rugs to I roll out in that space, alternating them every couple of weeks. Both are pretty fabulous pieces (the other is a very nice and old Baluchi Mina Khani that I've posted before). It is of course a no-shoes place there and I have a good pad, but if someone other than me is in there (most of the time it's just me) I roll the good rug back and unleash a mediocre Baluchi, folded over, for any chairs or microphone stands. There is some repiling in this rug, but it is secured and solid, and besides taking out any harsh audio reflections bouncing off the ceiling I think that both of these rugs display beautifully on the floor. I remember a few months back on some thread it came up that these rugs were never meant to be viewed on a wall, and both of these rugs have a, well--I'm going to say it even though we can get in trouble for these things--three dimensional quality on the floor with the elements really appearing to float on the surface. Actually, with this one the guls do seem to be doing a formation flying thing from one end to the other.

So, obviously I want to be very careful, but I have seen no wear whatsoever caused by this use over the last 7 years on the Baluchi which is arguably thinner and more fragile than this Ersari (neither rug has holes or other damage that could catch and tear). I would be interested in reading any opinions about displaying a rug like this on the floor even in these conditions.

Paul
May 14th, 2010, 12:54 PM   24
Steve Price
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Hi Paul

Rugs have only a few serious enemies: moths, bright light, moisture, and grit. Being on the floor in a room that isn't terribly brightly lit and without grit from shoes in the room, a rug is likely to be safe for a very long time.

Regards

Steve Price
May 14th, 2010, 03:03 PM   25
Richard Larkin
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Hi Paul,

Your program with the rugs sounds fine. My concern is the recording studio. Be absolutely sure that mediocre Baluch has no treacherous dyes. The fuchsines and the alazarines will raise holy heck with the sound!

Rich Larkin
May 14th, 2010, 08:21 PM  26
Joel Greifinger
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Hi Rich,

You really should consider trying to work through your malevolent early synthetic dye fantasies. Recent therapies have encouraging rates of improvement for fuchsine flashbacks.

Joel Greifinger
May 15th, 2010, 01:02 AM   27
Paul Smith
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Rich--

You know, if I were worried about synthetics in there, I think my first agenda would have to be dealing with the NoMuv pad. IMHO that is a fine support for a good carpet, but I doubt there is a single substance in it that isn't synthetic!

Paul
May 19th, 2010, 08:15 PM   28
Chuck Wagner
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Hi all,

In an earlier post I mentioned a new arrival to the Turkoman heap in the Other Rug Bunker. At first I wondered if this might be a later Chodor piece; right now I'm leaning toward Tekke but am interested in opinions.

Warps: medium ivory brown to tan wool, Wefts: gray-brown wool, 1 thick, 1 thin; knots: Asym open right 9 H x 16 V = 144/sq in.; length 69 in, width 12 in.

The full Monty:



One closer shot of the front:



Some wear provides an instructive view of the structure:



White knot, Asym R:



Note the cluster of knots with a distinct purple cast at right of medallion:



Another shot of the back:



Comments ?

Regards,
Chuck Wagner
May 22nd, 2010, 03:25 AM   29
Paul Smith
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Hi Chuck--

For what it's worth, I have seen that field design before, as an "ikat-inspired" design attributed to the Ersari, but the piece I saw had more of a standard Ersari palette than yours has.

Paul
May 22nd, 2010, 09:39 AM   30
Rich Larkin
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Hi Chuck,

I too thought of Ersari first crack. I don't find the palette inconsistent with that attribution. However, 144 kpsi seemed fairly fine for that kind of Ersari. I couldn't get a good sense of the weave from the scale of your backside shots. Also, not to quibble, but the ratio of 16 x 9 didn't seem consistent with what I counted on that close up of the back of the octagonal device.

What does it feel like?

Rich Larkin
May 22nd, 2010, 02:51 PM   31
Chuck Wagner
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Rich, Paul,

When I first was wondering about Chodor-ness, it was because of a couple examples in Jourdan's book that had a white field background and a very long aspect ratio.

I haven't ever seen this motif before so it it's associated with Ersari then so be it. After receiving and examining in detail I started thinking Tekke, more because of the foundation assembly and the palette, as noted above. This is kinda non-standard for Ersari, as I understand them. I admit that he non-white knots have a Ersari-fat look to them but the fineness, the total lack of knot depression, ivory warps and two different weft thicknesses have me in a Tekke-leaning quandry regardless.

As for knot density, the least - vertically - is in the areas of red where the count is more like 14V but the white knots are quite thin and bring the V average up to 15 or 16. The H average is quite consistent at 9/inch.

As for feel, I would say slightly floppy. It's not stiff, for certain, but more resistant to deformation than most of my other clearly Ersari pieces.

Regards,
Chuck