Patrick Weiler

Steve,

The topic has been raised a few times over the years that natural red dyes could run. Many "experts" refused to believe it and feel that only synthetic red dyes would run. Pierre, however, refutes that "stable" natural red dyes could not run:
"However, running can occur even with wet-fast natural or synthetic dyes when the following conditions are combined:
1. Insufficient washing of the wool skeins after dyeing.
2. Poor dyeing: Insufficient pre-dyeing scouring of the wool, too low dyeing temperature, too short dyeing- or mordanting time, notable oxidation of indigo early in the dyeing operation, or heavy pre-mordanting all increase the probability that unfixed dye would run.
Running problems are worst in red shades because the eye notices and properly identifies red bleed"

This does not prove that all of my cheap, running-red garage-sale rugs were naturally dyed, pre-1850 weavings, though.

Insufficient washing after dyeing would certainly be a logical problem in places with very little water, which happens to cover pretty much all of the rug-weaving areas.
Does the Turkotek budget include enough extra funds to buy "modern high performance liquid method (HPLC), possibly coupled with DAD (diode-array detector) and MS (mass spectroscopy)" equipment?
As Pierre put it: "This puts dye identification well beyond the reach of even the most suspicious carpet buyer."

And probably out of reach of the rest of us gullible carpet buyers, too.

Patrick Weiler

Steve Price

Hi Pat

We ran a Salon on "stray reds" about 10 years ago; here's a link to it.

I believe that the rinsing was done by immersing the yarn in running streams or rivers. If that's true, the fact that water wasn't plentiful wouldn't have affected how thoroughly they could rinse the yarn. If you had access to a stream or river, you could rinse for a long time. Without that access, you couldn't rinse at all, so the dyers would get time off.

HPLC is expensive, even for a wealthy organization like Turkotek (the advertising covers expenses and pays a fat quarterly dividend to the managers). But thin-layer chromatograhy, less definitive in what it can tell about dyes, can be very inexpensive and simple.

My recollection of the "natural dyes never run" thing is that it came to us as a quotation from a very prominent Turkmen collector (I'm drawing a blank on his name right this minute). But I think he qualified it with "if the dye has been properly used". Modern, supposedly wet fast reds certainly run, as anyone who's ever let a red garment sneak into a washer load of cotton whites can attest.

Regards

Steve Price

Pierre Galafassi

Patrick and Steve Ave,

«Synthetic dyes run, natural dyes never run» is one of the many myths which are passed from generation to generation of ruggies without much challenging.

On wool, all dyes, be it natural or synthetic, can be talked into bleeding provided the conditions are hard enough. Even if dyeing and post-scouring of the dyed wool have both been properly executed and therefore no «unfixed» dye is left on the pile.
Even modern reactive dyes, the most wet-fast wool dyes money can buy, (because they form an extremely stable covalent bond with the wool polymer), can bleed if the wool is mishandled to the point of breaking its polymer structure or the link between dye and fiber. However, such hard conditions of temperature, pH etc. are not encountered by dyed wool under any normal circumstance.

If we limit our discussion to wool used for hand woven rugs, none of the dyes normally used for this specific application could claim a «good wet-fastness». Even the best ones merely belong to the «medium wet fastness» group and this includes the best, properly mordanted, dyed and scoured natural dyeing and the ubiquitous 1:1 chromium complex synthetic dyes. (Indigo would deserve a more detailled discussion).

However, we can still differentiate between these sufficiently wet fast dyes and some poorly wet fast dyes belonging to the early synthetic acid dyes families, which were not even good enough for a normal usage as a rug dye.

All the sufficiently wet fast dyes would enjoy running given a chance, that is being treated either with hot water, or alkaline water for a while, or confronted with an incontinent goat, or being exposed a long time to humidity, even at room temperature.
Aggravating conditions would be:
- a deep shade (close to the saturation limit of the dye),
- proximity between this deep shade and a white or very pale shade (easily soiled by even a trace of running dye).
- a red shade (our eye identifies as «red» even a very pale red bleed, while it misreads a very pale blue bleed as merely whiter and a very pale yellow bleed as merely dirtier.
and especially,
- a combination of several of the above, for example when our goat is a serial offender particularly motivated by dark red shades.

However, these dyes are not supposed to encounter these conditions under normal circumstances.

They do stand without problem less severe, normal conditions, like the usual «dealer’s handkerchief test» (rubbing a wet handkerchief on the carpet pile), a cold (room temperature) repeated washing at «high liquor ratio» (dyer’s jargon for at least 50kg of water per kg of wool), or the occasional, quickly dried, spilling of water or kumiss.

«Running» by capillarity from a dark shade area to an adjacent white area of a wet carpet is not the only possible way to explain color cross-contamination:

Some natural wool dyes (especially indigo, perhaps also the alizarin / alum / calcium complex) can lead to formation of some practically insoluble pigment on the surface of the fibre. The mandatory thorough washing-off of wool skeins after dyeing may have failed to remove it completely. Repeated rubbing of this "surface-colored" fibre on a white one can be sufficient to transfer some of this pigment from the former to the latter and for the eye to notice it.
Wool fibrils do break when exposed to obstinate rubbing (and wrong dyeing conditions can make wool quite brittle). Let us assume that the master of the yurt always sits at the same place on his khali and has a liking for a pair of deep red colored pants, it won‘ t take very long until traces of red wool micro-fibrils will contaminate a pale shade area of the khali. Without a good magnifying glass these fibrils will not been identified as such but will look quite like bleed.
I am looking for some trace of red bleed on rugs which pre-synthetic birth could stand even Steve's scepticism. Not a peace of cake though.

Steve Price

Hi Pierre

One of the things that always bothered me about the proponents of the notion that synthetic dyes run, natural dyes never run is that I was never convinced that running wasn't one of their diagnostic criteria for synthetic reds. That is, I suspect that they classify a dye as synthetic the instant they see that it has run. If my suspicion is correct, they couldn't possibly recognize a running red as an example of a running natural dye. The conclusion (synthetic dyes run, natural dyes never run) is built into their test, and can never be contradicted for that reason.

Regards

Steve Price

Pierre Galafassi

Hi Steve,
I am probably best on my way to become a dealer's Nemesis, so I 'd better agree with your opinion strictly off the records ( but strongly).

I hope to be able to post soon a few pics of red bleed on classical carpets.
regards
Pierre

Steve Price

Hi Pierre

My impression of most of the folks who deal in antique rugs and textiles is that they're willing and able to abandon marketplace myths when someone shows them evidence. They recognize the lack of rigor underlying most of the rug lore that they were taught.

There are, of course, some who insist that what they were taught is correct, that it is proven correct by them saying that it is, and that anyone unable to grasp that simple truth is a moron (or worse).

Regards

Steve Price

Pierre Galafassi

Hi Steve,
It is not easy to find pics convincingly showing bleed of natural dyes.

The carpet must pre-date synthetic dyes, without any possible discussion («Unanimous rug experts»: a huge oxymoron).
To remain on the safe side, I looked only for rugs woven, most likely, before 1800.

Even on good pics it might be difficult to differentiate between bleed and showing through of red- or brown weft at places where pile has been damaged. Thus the chosen carpets must be in such a good shape that we can safely assume that no pile is missing.

A seemingly undamaged pile would give us a fair chance that no re-piling was ever performed with lousy, bleeding synthetic acid dyes.

On pics, it is nearly impossible to differentiate between a small bleed of yellow- or yellow brown colors into white pile and any normal shade variation of white wool, or traces of dirt or spilling. I believe that only a red bleed could be clearly identified as such. Besides, except blood and rusty water, most possible red stains are likely to be quickly bleached out by light (red wine pigment for example, even the quality of port wine found in British gentlemen's clubs).

The following examples might raise at least a small doubt about the iron rule «natural dyes never bleed»:

Salor khali. XVIII. The Hermitage, Saint Petersburg. E. Tzareva. Rugs and Carpets from Central Asia. Page 29


The white areas of 4 guls seem contaminated with traces of red dye.

2.Salor chuval. XVIII. Museum of Ethnography, Saint Petersburg. E Tzareva. Rugs and Carpets from Central Asia. Page 33

Quite clear case of red bleed to me.
The next Salor chuval on same page also shows highly suspect stains. Salor were not the most lousy dyers on earth, so bleed must have happened on the production of less gifted weavers too, when exposed to exceptional conditions.

3.Karapinar. XVIII. Sovereign Carpets. E. Concaro & A. Levi. Page 41.

It looks as if we would have a red bleed, both in white- and in yellow pile.
I can’t see how this could be explained by abrash, sheep blood, Pinot Noir spilling, weft showing through or photographic aberrations. Do you?
The red contamination appears on a few knots only, woven at intervals of several days (40-50 rows). This would be a rather peculiar type of abrash!

The bleeding, saturated black was probably made with indigo, over-dyed with madder, perhaps on a greyish or brownish wool.

4. Ushak with Lotto pattern. XVII. Kunstauktionshaus F. Nagel. 286. Tafel 157.

Again a rather credible red bleed in a classical carpet.

To settle the matter for good, one of the following tests should be performed on pre-1800 carpet dyed wool:
1) Performing AATCC- or ISO wash fastness- or so called "water severe" tests at 30°C, 50°C and 90° C for example.
2) Analysis of the apparent bleed by HPLC and proving that it is indeed alizarine.
Alternatively,
3) Getting a competent and trusted dyer of natural dyes to dye wool with madder and perform these tests on it .

Of course, no Museum curator in his right sense would offer his support for option 1) and 2), but perhaps a mad or drunk one can be found.
Best regards
Pierre

Steve Price

Hi Pierre

Thare are more examples in the introductory essay of the Salon on "stray reds." Also, the Summary of that Salon lists no fewer than 10 possible causes of what look like dye runs. Some are dye runs, of course.

Regards

Steve Price

Pierre Galafassi

Hi Steve,
Just finished reading your interesting vintage 2000 discussion and its excellent summary. May I take the liberty of copying-pasting it here and completing it with a few additional possible causes and some comments?

....« the discussion showed that there are examples of stray reds in what appear to be Turkmen rugs made before the invention of synthetic dyes. We generated a number of explanations for this, with specific examples illustrating some of them. These are:
1 The one everybody knew about before we started, color runs from using a synthetic red dye in the piece, common in 20th century production.
2. Repair of damaged pile using wool dyed with a poor acid red.
3. Natural variation in the color of nominally ivory or white wool, exemplified in a Yomud piece in Amos Bateman Thacher's book.
4. Red wefts peeking through white or ivory pile, as in a torba (trapping?) in my collection and, perhaps in the Tekke germetch in The Rickmers Collection.
5. Red wefts peeking through abrased pile and looking like bleed (on photos only).
6. Staining from dyes originally on young rugs that, one way or another, had colors that ran onto older ones, as exemplified by some of the rugs in the Dudin collection in St. Petersburg.
7. Photographic artifacts, which Wendel Swan notes in a (non-Turkmen) bag in his collection and which occurs in at least one Salor bag from St.Petersburg's museum.
8. Runs from cochineal reds, which apparently happen now and then (My guess is that 9 or 10 apply)
9. Runs from madder that was inadequately rinsed from the wool after dyeing.
10. Runs from un-mordanted madder (Un-mordanted or inadequately mordanted wool does take up some madder, the shade is much weaker than on mordanted fibre and wet-fastness is poorer). The potential source includes dyed weft, which is sometimes dyed with second or third spent madder baths.
11. Red runs from natural black and dark brown shades in which the indigo has been dyed after the madder, damaging the madder dyeing.
12. Runs from very strong natural red shade, near the saturation limit of the dye. (In all dyeings, potential for bleed increases with increasing depth of shade)
13. Runs from washing old (natural dyed) rugs in hot water under low liquor ratio conditions: The water temperature has a spectacular influence on wet fastness of wool dyes. No bleed at 20-30°C, significant bleed at 40-50°C and strong bleed at 80-90°C is the expected, normal behaviour of the type of dyes used for rug wool. Poor dyes (like old acid dyes), just start bleeding at 20-30° C already. High liquor ratio (lots of water used in washing and rinsing) and good circulation of the wash-bath are mandatory to limit visible color cross-contamination.
14. Runs from exposure of old (natural dyed) rugs to unusual, hard conditions like long time exposure to humidity, to alkaline and /or hydrotropic humidity (urine). Time of exposure is the third important factor in bleed: No noticeable bleed after 1 hour wet contact does not mean that there will be no bleed after 1 week exposure!
15. Runs from chemically damaged wool, once exposed to a spill of acid or alkaline chemical.
16. Runs from repeatedly washing old rugs: Not sure about this one. If each washing is performed under correct conditions, there should be no problem with madder-dyed wool.
17. Discoloration originating from stains being set or carpet dye being moved during attempts at stain removal.
18. Permanent stains from a light-fast red contaminant, which has moved by capillarity into the pile and thus looks very much like dye run (ex. rusty water, blood?)

regards
Pierre

Steve Price

Hi Pierre

The variety of causes of stray reds makes it very difficult, probably impossible, to diagnose something as a color run based on a photo. There are too many possible explanations.

I find the change in collector reaction to it over the years quite interesting. Amos Bateman Thacher has a Yomud piece with red tints in the white in his seminal book on Turkmen weavings (around 1940). He refers to it as natural variation in the color of white wool, and gushes about its beauty. I own a Yomud torba with what appears to be a similar stray red, which I showed to a well known Turkmen expert at a conference about 15 years ago. She recoiled before touching it when she saw the colors, as though it might harbor some awful contagious disease.

Regards

Steve Price

Rob van Wieringen

Hi Pierre,

Thanks for your very elaborated article.
Your 4 examples of red dye run in pre-1800 examples to support your point, don't look very convincing to me, though.
The first two, from the Hermitage collection, were apparently contaminated by younger pieces in a flood of the storage room of the museum, as mentioned by Elena Tsareva.
The Karapinar and the Lotto pictures just show a very localized discoloration. Could be anything. For the Lotto it could be a repair and for the Karapinar I would expect some real red next to the contaminated yellow, instead of this brown next to it, whatever dye was used for it.
What I really would like to see, and what would get me hesitating, is a piece, pre-1800, and preferably several of them, where all of the white wool in it is contaminated by the madder dye used in the same rug. That would be very interesting and useful in supporting your ideas.
They surely must be around, if your these is correct.

Best regards,

Rob van Wieringen

Pierre Galafassi

Hi Rob,
Well, proving beyond a doubt that madder running has occurred on any specific rug (and without even handling it) will remain an elusive target for the reason mentioned by Steve: Too many possible causes for discoloration to chose from.
A clear, indisputable answer would only be given by an analytical identification of the running madder. Thus, I agree, your hypothesis on the cause of running on the four rugs is just as good as mine.
I am not sure even that running all over a pre-1850 rug (*), which you deem convincing enough, would persuade everybody. There would still be no shortage of possible explanations for that occurrence: To Steve’s already quite long list of causes, one could even add the fact that the rather wet-fast madder and insect reds were not the only natural dyes ever used on rugs. According to H. Bidder (**), carthamine red, a direct dye of mediocre light-and wet fastness obtained from safflower (Carthamus tinctorum) was used, next to the ubiquitous madder, in the Khotan area (so called «Tibetan red»). Other sources indicate it’s use in safavid Persia.

However, madder can run when exposed to hard conditions such as those listed in my essay. This is not a hypothesis but a certainty.

Regards
Pierre
(*) See what appears (on pictures) such a case of extensive run (Yomud asmalyk. XVIII. F. Nagel 282. 1979) on server:



(**) Hans Bidder. Carpets from Eastern Turkestan. P. 38

Chuck Wagner

Hi Pierre,

First, let me thank you for putting together a very cogent presentation with lots of good information. I've been silent until now because I have no specific knowledge on the topic, but lots of interest. Thus, very little to add ( and this may be true for the silent majority of the Turkotek community).

I do have a few images of dye jobs that most folks (until know) would probably have guessed as vegetable dyes. I'll post them over the next couple days. I also have a few of the evidence - pieces with fugitive dyes jobs. I don't know that such a thread would be very popular, though it may serve as an amusing confessional for one and all.

I think there is a context component to consider - certain groups (like the Bahktiari) were documented to have been using vegetal dyes into the early 1900's-1930's. As a result, one might combine visual cues with such independent information to judge that vegetal dyes are present.

Clearly, wet chemistry is the final arbiter.

I would argue that the nature of the dye trade has evolved in such a way as to allow both manufacturers and dyemasters to allow more "poor" products and jobs to get to market. The habits of modern consumer society are such that the time and cost of artisan level work are not in line with what folks are willing to pay.

Further, the dyeing part of the manufacturing chain is removed from the consumer by several levels of indirection, making the process of retribution for bad work very difficult to accomplish. Poor goods are sold and distributed with no real feedback - only a few people will take the time to go back and complain about running dyes, etc.

This is in contrast to "the very old days" where the knowledge of dyemasters was closely held, and a poor craftsman was probably hard to find because reputation was everything. As volumes increased during the industrial era, I suspect it became increasingly common for a lot of badly dyed wool to find its way to market. And nomadic persons, an increasingly smaller proportion of the total buying community, were probably poorly positioned to protest against poor work or the higher prices associated with good work.

So I think there is a reason we don't see too many examples of running dyes on very old pieces, but I don't think it is the dyes that made the difference in the past - but rather - market conditions and a small closed trade.

Regards,
Chuck Wagner

Pierre Galafassi

Hi Chuck,

There is hardly any doubt that in the textile industry too, the pressures on cost have caused a general quality decrease. When I started my career (ages ago) any sizable dye-house employed a significant number of highly knowledgeable dyers (textile engineers or masters) and training was a serious matter indeed. Not anymore.
Even though, as you write, customers rarely complain and when they do, their complain does not necessarily reach the Brands, these very large corporations still have high costs of (poor) quality!

As far as old rugs are concerned: I suppose that moronic dyers have always existed, especially for red and yellow yarn (home-dyeing by the weaver herself or her mother, while indigo was probably mostly applied by specialists). However, for most nomad machos a lady's reputation was perhaps much more influenced by her (or her family's) talent as a weaver & dyer than by her looks or apple pie recipe. Natural selection kept the "incompetent-dyer chromosome" from spreading.
Regards
Pierre

Rob van Wieringen

Hi Pierre,

Thanks for the picture, but Nagel's Asmalyk does not look that old to me. I would estimate it end 19th.c, probably with a firm amount of synth. dyes in it. No way this is 18th.century, in my opinion.

Anyway, once again I've much enjoyed reading your article.
I want to keep focused only on the red madder dye issues, for the sake of simplicity and clarity.
I understand the possibility of madder dye running under extreme conditions, but I have some questions regarding the more or less normal conditions.

-Herr Dr.Böhmer, one of the most experienced dye expert in the rug world, says : "Madder red does not run. The 'overdying' that is often cited as an excuse in trade circles, and even among collectors, for red that has run, just does not occur with madder". ( Hali #109 )
Do you agree with him in this? (Assuming Herr Böhmer didn't incorporate extreme conditions).

-In this same Hali article Herr Böhmer observed a difference in light-resistance of madder dye used on wool and on silk.
Adequately light-resistant on wool, but not always on silk. Could you think of an explanation for this difference?

-When a rug is washed, with a running red in it, the red dye seems to stick on to the white parts. Because the white wool was not mordanted, I would expect the infected white wool could easily be rinsed to get the red dye out, but this is never the case. How come?

-Is there, in general, any correlation between light-fastness and wet-fastness of a dye?

Best regards,
Rob van Wieringen

Pierre Galafassi

Hi Rob,

I won’t argue with you about the age of this asmalyk, I would be fully out of my league and would rather take your word for it.

1. About H. Bödmer’s remark: I am not sure what exactly he meant to say: If he was saying that madder dyes eventually reach an apex of concentration (the saturation limit) on mordanted fibre and that, even at that maximum depth, the dye does not run under condition normally encountered by a carpet ( a few hours contact with humidity at temperatures below 30-35° C for example ), I would agree with him. Once the «saturation» is reached, any more dye on the fiber would merely be absorbed on the surface and would be rinsed away by the mandatory intensive washing of the skeins. Any remaining trace would be cleaned during the -again mandatory- washing of the rug in cold running water. Of course, assuming these operations have indeed been dutifully performed. (The idea that a young Turkoman lady could have a lapse of concentration because of a handsome visiting warrior is of course ludicrous).

However, a correctly applied madder, washed and all, does already show
traces of «run» at temperatures around 40°C and the tendency to run gets worse with increasing depth of shades (and much worse with further increasing temperature).
It is a universal rule (and simple logic) that all wool dyes, are the most keen for a run whenever their depth of shade approaches the dye saturation limit.

The illustration below shows the result of a quick home-made test on madder-dyed wool (An it was correctly dyed and washed, please take my word for it). While the test was surely not performed according to strict ISO or AATCC standards (far from it), it still shows the slight running from a yarn left humid for 24 hours at a temperature constantly kept between 30 and 40°C. Now this is of course a condition that only very few out-of luck rugs may have met with during their life.



2. Dr. Bödmer’s remark about inferior light fastness of madder red on silk, compared with wool, is perfectly correct. He also mentions in his book Koekboya that insect reds, for example Cochineal, show a much better light fastness on silk than madder. This was well known by old dyers and surely explains why our Turkoman friends used it for silk highlights (next to its nice, bluer red shade of course).

A given dye will in general show different light fastness on different fibers, the main reason for it, being that the resistance of a chromophore to absorbed light energy depends on how well it can transfer most of this energy to its environment, including to the fiber. If the absorbed energy can’t be dissipated in any harmless way, it will wreak havoc on the chromophore, destroying or modifying its color. ( I am sure you would want me banned from Turkotek, if ever I would dare to mention singulet- and triplet states, so let me cut it here). Just an example to demonstrate the point though: «Aniline dyes»(tri-phenylmetane), have a much better lightfastness on poly-acrylonitrile fiber than on wool (rating of 3-4 or better, instead of 1).

3. When a rug is washed under conditions which cause some bleed of a mordant dye (or any other dye) and if the dye finds during its capillary diffusion some white- or pale shade wool, even un-mordanted wool, it will visibly soil it. The dye affinity, of madder for example, for un-mordanted wool is low, but there is still some affinity.
That is the reason why rinsing or washing should not only be performed at low temperature (below 35°C with madder), to avoid dye extraction, but also at high «liquor ratio» (means «with lots of water», for example in the next river), in order to make sure that any extraction, which still might have occured would never lead to any significant soiling, since the loose dye would be too diluted to cause any harm (It would be unable to concentrate on a small wool surface and become visible).

Madder does not have a good wash-fastness on un-mordanted wool, but it would still require many cold rinses before any red stain would become invisible.

4. There is no significant correlation between light-and wash-fastness. There is only a rather good rule saying that surface dye is likely to have inferior light- and wash fastness, compared with a dye which has penetrated the fiber and formed a physical bond with it.

Rob van Wieringen

Hi Pierre,

Thanks very much for your extended answers and your insightful home-made experiment!
Just one question left: When you would lower the temperature in your home-made yarn test to room temperature ( ca. 20 C ) and again for the same 24 hours, would you expect to see any visible running at all?

Best regards,
Rob

Steve Price

Hi Rob

I don't know the answer (I'm sure Pierre does). But if the basic issue is whether madder reds can/do run under real life conditions, the relevant duration for antique rugs is tens of thousands of times more than 24 hours, and temperatures in western and central Asia can reach the neighborhood of 40 degrees C (a little over 100 degrees F) and stay there for significant times.

Regards

Steve Price

Pierre Galafassi

Hi Rob and Steve,

I made the test with wool from the same skein, at room temperature too (19-22°): After 4 days there was absolutely no trace of run. Which is perfectly normal and fully what I expected. Wet fastness is very sensitive to temperature:

Zero bleed at 20 and 30°C, trace of bleed at 35-45° C, significant bleed at 45-55°C and a blood bath at 60-70°C would be a perfectly usual behavior for wool dyes of this category.

24 hours in humid state at 40°C is surely not a frequent occurrence. However it must have happened from time to time. A flooded khali dried outside during a hot day, might come quite close to these critical conditions, especially if the rug is not, as I believe it should be, dried flat on the lawn, pile upside.

Besides, some liquors are worse than water. I don't know how koumis behaves and vodka evaporates quickly, but sweat for sure can be a problem. Now, for all I know, it is possible that camel do not sweat, not even when they are covered with layers of asmalyks, at 45°C in the sun, in the wedding caravan of a slightly overweight young lady.

Have a "bon weekend" mates.
Regards
Pierre

Steve Price

Hi Pierre

There are many conditions to which an antique western or central Asian rug might have been exposed during its 100+ years of existence. I don't know whether camels sweat. Unless they pant as dogs do when hot, they sweat. Horses sweat, and many of the peoples of the rug weaving regions had horses. So horse sweat could be a source of moisture, as could urine from animals and people.

It's important to remember, too, that most of the rugs with which we're familiar have been in Europe or the USA for decades. This means that some could have been exposed to conditions unheard of in situ. Steam radiators are an example, as are hot showers.

My best guess is that stray reds occur in 1% to 5% of Turkmen rugs that we think are probably pre-synthetic. There are a number of ways stray reds can come about, dye runs from wool in the same rug is only one of them. So madder runs are plausible candidates for being the cause in something like 0.1% of "pre-synthetic" Turkmen rugs. That seems consistent with what we might guess to be the frequency with which the conditions leading to madder runs could have occurred.

Just as a point in passing: this doesn't change the fact that stray reds are common with early synthetic red dyes and seldom occur with madder. Therefore, the occurrence of stray red is probably a pretty good indicator that there's a synthetic red in the palette. It just isn't 100% reliable as an indicator. Then again, age attribution is very inexact, and the confidence some ruggies have in their ability to make such attributions reliably doesn't change that fact.

Regards

Steve Price

Chuck Wagner

Greetings Pierre, et al,

Here's an example of our tax dollars at work - in this case, helping us comprehend the level of discomfort in quite a bit of the rug weaving world. This is a total water vapor column, but, raise hand if you believe it gets really cloudy in the summer in Turkmenistan... In that region, this is mainly near surface humidity:



A review of the humidity levels in the trans-Caspian region should shed some light on why we might expect to find contact/humidity related madder bleeds such as Pierre describes in a number of Turkoman weavings, particularly Yomut and Karakalpak. South Persian, Baluchistani, and eastern Caucasian rugs live in similar conditions.

Let me shed a little light on the level of flexibilty required to evaluate that old saying: It's a dry heat in the desert. The following are pictures from the eastern and central Rub Al Khali in late August.

Along the coast of the Persian Gulf, the humidity is absolutely ghastly. Depending on the winds, it sometimes blows out into the middle of the desert. The sand gets damp to a thickness of 1-2 mm (capillary tension) and behaves as a cohesive skin over the dry sand beneath (see below). As for the rest, well, picture 99F and foggy. Yuk. Everything gets wet, and , covered with dust and sand. Yuk twice.:









Desert camping trip, anyone ?

Regards,
Chuck Wagner

Pierre Galafassi

Bonsoir Steve and Chuck,

Steve, I completely share your opinion, dye run is surely much more frequent with early synthetic acid dyes than with madder. And therefore a strong indication that a rug is probably post 1858. If we keep saxon blue (which started running a century earlier and kept going ever since), out of this discussion.

Chuck, this is very interesting information, I had no idea that a steppe could be that similar to a Roman caldarium. Outstanding pics!

Regards
Pierre