November 24th, 2009, 09:37 AM  1
Steve Price
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Intimidated by the chemistry? Here's a tip.

Hi All

Pierre's essay essentially has two parts. Roughly the first two-thirds of the page is a history of dye chemistry, with chemical structures and a vocabulary that will baffle and perhaps intimidate some readers. My advice to folks whose background in chemistry is limited (most people) is to skim the first part, get what you can out of it and don't worry about what you missed.

The second part is the final third of the page, beginning with the heading, Some information useful for any carpetologist ambitious enough to try to date a carpet based on its colors. From here to the end of the essay is a wealth of information important to every ruggie. It deals with a number of Rugdom's widely held myths, and understanding it doesn't require advanced training in the sciences.

Regards

Steve Price
November 25th, 2009, 10:56 AM 2
Joel Greifinger
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Well worth the wading

Hi Pierre,

Despite my lack of background in chemistry, it was well worth the effort of working slowly (and with only very partial comprehension) through your essay. It provides the most enlightening and succinct overview of dye history as it relates to rugs that I have come across. The final sections could stand alone as a wonderful Dye FAQ for ruggies.

Thanks for sharing your experience and expertise.

Joel Greifinger
November 25th, 2009, 03:51 PM   3
Pierre Galafassi
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chemistry

Thanks Joel,
I have been reading and enjoying Turkotek for quite a while now and I had a growing feeling of riding the bus for free.
regards
Pierre
November 26th, 2009, 11:29 AM   4
Marvin Amstey
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I just finished reading your essay, Pierre. Thanks for making it abundantly clear that none of us - no matter how long we have been "studying rugs" - can differentiate natural from synthetic dyes. Twenty years ago I worked with Paul Mushak and Geo. O'Bannon on the analysis of our Turkmen collection. At that time I was beginning to believe in our inability to make those distinctions. Your essay confirms it for me and will save a lot of time in trying to convince someone that what I believe is a "natural" dye - or not - is not even relevant: either you like the rug or you don't!
November 26th, 2009, 01:35 PM  5
Steve Price
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Hi Marvin

I agree that aesthetics is the primary criterion for deciding whether I want to live with a piece or not. But that decision is almost never made in a vacuum. The question isn't usually,"Do I want that piece?" It's usually, "Do I want that piece enough to pay the price the seller demands?" That question immediately drags in the issue of market value. And market value is based on perceived age and the age-related property, the perception of whether dyes are natural or synthetic.

Add to that the inescapable fact that our perception of aesthetics is at least partly learned - the same artifact will be perceived as being more beautiful if we believe that it's ancient than if we believe that it's a recent product.

Regards

Steve Price
November 26th, 2009, 07:38 PM   6
Marvin Amstey
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Ah, yes! Who is the better seller: the one who makes us believe whatever he or she wishes us to perceive. We still have to do the perceiving, and our own eyes and experience is what makes the difference - that and the price. I just bought an old Anatolian that probably has an acid indigo, but it is still a beautiful rug.
November 27th, 2009, 05:29 AM   7
Pierre Galafassi
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Interesting discussion started by Marvin and Steve!

In statistical terms the Turkotek population is much privileged:
Seeing and feeling a huge amount of rugs, reading the best experts’ books, exchanging opinions and informations with other ruggies on the site, this population has surely acquired an excellent sense of what differentiates a great rug from a nice one, and a nice one from a rag. I suppose that there will be quasi unanimity about which rug belongs to which of these three or four categories, whatever the personal preferences. A Salor lover might not get in trance for a top Khotan, but will easily agree that it is a great rug.

Parameters like design personality (inside the frame of a given rug civilization), boldness, beautiful and equilibrated colors, wool quality, ethnological interest, rarity etc..,surely get a high, rather similar priority from all of us. And yet, parameters which are beyond our possibility to assess or even irrelevant for any objective quality of the rug, like the type ( modern synthetic- or natural) of colorant utilized are essential for our judgment.

Even though I can probably make a rather objective comparison of the merits of natural and synthetic dyes (fastnesses, ecology etc..) and although I am fully aware that, on the whole, the latter are superior, I would never buy a rug dyed with synthetic dyes (nor would I ever buy pants dyed with natural dyes).
The reason mentioned by Steve is surely one explanation, but another is a fully irrational yet dominant need.
I once saw, in the Uffizzi museum, a painter making a copy of a small Lippi portrait. A technically outstanding copy, in which the painter introduced something personal, a very slightly mischievous smile of the model, while Lippi gave him a rather bored lip. I would have bought the copy on the spot, but wife and friends, all, had very strong negative reactions, which none could convincingly justify.
November 27th, 2009, 04:16 PM  8
Marvin Amstey
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Pierre,
You stated that in many instances it is not possible to distinguish natural from synthetic dyes.Therefore, how do you choose the rug to buy unless you limit your buying to pre 1860?
November 27th, 2009, 05:25 PM   9
Pierre Galafassi
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Good question Marvin,
To be sure of having only natural dyes on my rugs I would have to buy rugs given as XVIII century (and perhaps the safety margin would not even be sufficient). Obviously there would be a minor $ problem with this approach.
Thus I have chosen an alternative which is much frown upon by most serious ruggies and ridiculed by all others: A modest, private, mini-Dobag. Its lot's of fun.
But pleeeeease don't tell anybody, it would get me booted out of Turkotek.
Pierre
November 28th, 2009, 09:25 AM   10
Marvin Amstey
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Me too. But we wouldn't let that happen.
December 2nd, 2009, 08:46 PM   11
Rich Larkin
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Hi Pierre,

This is a terrific salon. Never have I encountered so clear and thorough a discussion of the various synthetic dyes that have been used (and not used!) in the coloring of handwoven rugs over the years. I have many questions, not necessarily related to one another. I will list a few in no particular order.

1. Please comment a bit more on the practice of “wool fermentation.” How and why was it done? In that regard, a question that may or may not be related is, are there commonly employed techniques of bleaching wool used in rugs? Some whites look “whiter” than Mother Nature may have planned.
2. You mentioned “small ones” and “bulky ones,” presumably referring to dyes. Could you explain those terms?
3. Regarding the occurrence of bleeding of naturally dyed yarns in some cases: Would you agree that it is probably fairly rare in fact in naturally dyed rugs; and that rugs exhibiting signs of having suffered bleeding are very likely to have been dyed with synthetics?
4. There is a commercial dye widely available in the U. S. under the trade name, RIT. It is available in a powder form and a liquid form. I have had success in modifying colored wool yarns, such as Paternayan or Bucilla, by re-dyeing with RIT in order to match a specific color in a rug for repiling. Are you familiar with the product, and if so, can you characterize it in terms of the various kinds of dyes you described in your article?
That’s enough for now, and thanks again for this most excellent salon.

Rich Larkin
December 3rd, 2009, 03:15 PM   12
Pierre Galafassi
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Hi Rich,
Thanks for the flowers, I am presently blushing.

1.1. Yes, indeed wool can be «whitened» (with so-called «optical brighteners»: blue-violet fluorescent molecules which make a yellowish textile seem whiter) and wool can be «bleached» (As a first step by properly scouring the wool, then, if required, by extracting and destroying its natural yellow-ivory tint with a chemical process).
Actually, a large percentage of the wool production is bleached before dyeing.
Although some natural optical brighteners are known, I do not know whether they ever were used by our ancestors on rug wool. I doubt it though .

1.2. I cannot comment much on «wool fermentation». Actually I did not believe Dr. Bieber’s theory (Dr Böhmer seems skeptical too (*)), until a friend, owner of a wool-dyeing and carpet-weaving company and expert user of natural dyes, managed to convince me of its validity. Apparently, the old trick was never completely forgotten by some Turkomans. Amazing!
The wool is left in a vat with some alum and enough acidity to avoid fouling, during a week or more, at ( Afghan summer-) room temperature. Some fermentation takes place and apparently does open the wool scale structure, making a subsequent «cold» mordant dyeing possible. «Cold» meaning some 50° or 60° C, I guess. The dyeing time is obviously much longer than when using a conventional process. Clearly it has a favorable impact on both shade and strength (Shade of madder red is quite sensitive to dye-bath temperature).

2. With «small» and «bulky» dyes, I was referring to the dimension of their molecule. In order to obtain a true dyeing the dye must penetrate into the fibre (just sitting on its surface would never give the necessary «fastness». For example light-, wet-, rubbing- or wash fastness). Unfortunately, the channels through which the dye must diffuse, in order to penetrate the wool, are rather narrow compared to the size of some dyes. To use an image, some dyes are like bikes and others like 20-ton lorries: guess which one is quicker in the narrow, crowded and winding streets of Samarkand ? (I am positive: there are bikes in Samarkand too).

3. I fully agree, it must be a rare occurrence: The main natural dyes used for rugs (Alum mordanted madder, insect reds and flavonoid yellows, as well as the vat dye indigo) are good dyes, perfectly suited for any normal usage of a rug.
Madder and insect reds probably do bleed in some rare accidental cases (traces of running red can be spotted because the eye is so sensitive to it).
Judging from their chemical structure one would expect the main natural yellows (mostly alum- or tannin mordanted flavonoid dyes, like luteolin) to bleed a trifle more. However the small quantities of yellow which can be expected to bleed, even under rather unusual rug conditions, will probably nearly always be mistaken for natural variations of the wool shade or dirt.

4. I am not familiar with the brand name RIT. Some modern wool dyes (leveling acid dyes) are not suitable for rug wool, they are too keen to bleed. To make quite sure that a dye is ok, one can use a very simple test. Make a sandwich of cotton, (deep-) dyed wool, un-dyed wool and cotton again, wet it, press it, put it in a small plastic bag, near the heating (say at around 25-30°C, no more!! ) and forget it there for a couple of hours. If the colored fibre has not bled at all, the dye is probably OK. (Madder or chrome dyes would not bleed at all under these conditions).

(* ) Koekboya. Dr H Böhmer.
December 3rd, 2009, 04:33 PM 13
Marvin Amstey
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Pierre,
I had not been aware of yellow bleeding. Does this relate at all to the fact that some white (ivory wool) appears to have a "dirtiness" on the surface which has been attributed to oil lamp or cigarette smoke?
December 3rd, 2009, 05:04 PM   14
Pierre Galafassi
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Hi Marvin,
Sorry but I don't know.
It is already awfully difficult to be sure that run of a natural red dye has really occurred. (Too many other explanations are possible).
With yellow run, it is even much worse, since the bleed would probably never be obvious enough. At least on pictures.
The chemical structure of the yellows makes a lower wet fastness compared to alizarin quite probable, but the trouble is that the way the dye and the metal "arrange themselves" (the exact structure of the metal complex) is unknown and this matters in wet fastness too.
regards
Pierre
December 4th, 2009, 07:26 PM   15
Dinie Gootjes
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Hi Pierre, Rich and All,

RIT is described as an all purpose dye, a combination of leveling acid dye and direct dye.
I found this page about dyeing wool on the internet:

http://www.pburch.net/dyeing/FAQ/wool.shtml

It does mention RIT dyes, but the author is more enthusiastic about Lanaset. Any comments?

Dinie
December 5th, 2009, 04:10 AM   16
Pierre Galafassi
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Good morning Dinie,
Thanks for the information.
Well, the presence of acid leveling dyes in the RIT mix makes wet fastness problems on rugs quite likely. A quick and dirty test, as described earlier, would be wise.
The other component of the mix is said to be a "direct dye"? In the dyer's jargon a direct dye is a specific type of dye for cellulosic fibres (cotton, viscose, etc.). Direct dyes have the lowest wet- and wash fastness of all cotton dyes, but they are very easy and forgiving to use. Ideal for hobby dyers. They can dye wool too (with rather mediocre results).
Initially "direct" designated as well any dye capable of dyeing a natural fibre (wool included), without necessitating any mordanting. Today "direct" is only used with this meaning by fans of natural dyes.

I am not surprised that your source speaks well of Lanaset dyes: I consider this range of 1:2 Cr complex dyes (not to be confused with the 1:1 Cr dyes used for rugs), as the best and most sophisticated wool range of its category. However Lanaset dyes have not been designed for yarn dyeing, but for the much larger "loose stock" dyeing segment. Misused for rug skein they would give a rather noticeable (but on-tone) abrash. Lanaset is a protected brand name. The dye manufacturer belongs presently to an american company.
Regards
Pierre
December 5th, 2009, 01:07 PM  17
Dinie Gootjes
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Hallo Pierre,

Thanks again for all the information. "Direct dye" in this case meant:dye for cellulose fibers. RIT is meant for a wide variety of materials, if the one type of dye does not work, the other will .

If Lanaset is used for very small quantities of yarn, as for repairs, would the result not be more even than if one was to dye a whole skein? Rich uses RIT to fine tune a small amount of approximately the right colour to match the place to be repaired. I do get the impression that RIT is a lot easier to use. In the US Lanaset is sold in small quantities at quite reasonable prices. Via the internet I guess anyone could get it now.

Dinie
December 5th, 2009, 03:17 PM   18
Pierre Galafassi
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Hi Dinie,

Yes, with very little wool, a lot of dye-bath, a good agitation of the bath and a slow increase of the bath temperature (for example starting at 30° C and increasing 10°C every 5 minutes, then remaining at 95-100°C for 30-45 minutes, the yarn would be reasonably level with Lanaset. Anyway, a little bit of micro-abrash should not be a problem.

Still, the right dyes for wool yarn are the 1:1 Cr complex dyes. One of the many brand names is Neolan. The standard industrial dyeing method for wool skein is:

1. Make a bath with 0,5g/l Albegal FFA and 0,75 g/l Albegal NF (leveling agents) at pH 2,5-2,8 (with Sulfuric acid 96%, about 2,0-2,5 g/l. Verify pH . : In industrial dyeing one uses a pH-meter, for home dyeing do it with pH-sensitive paper, if available).
2. Bring it to about 60°C, dissolve the dye in it.
3. After 5 minutes, introduce the wool. Maintain a good agitation of the bath (or of the skein) during the whole dyeing process.
4. Increase temperature at a rate of about 1,5°C-2°C/min
5. Stay near the boil for about 60 min.
6. Get the fiber out, rinse it thoroughly with water.
7. Neutralise the acid, by rinsing with a solution of about 4-6 g/l sodium acetate (or sodium carbonate).
8. Rinse, again, thoroughly with water. Dry.
Since a perfect levelness is not expected for rug wool, the 2 leveling agents are not mandatory.

I shall cash the consultant fee as soon as your new dye-house will rank among the 10 largest in the world, Dinie.
Regards
Pierre
December 5th, 2009, 09:06 PM   19
Dinie Gootjes
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We can start the consultant fee right away, Pierre. How is 10% of all the wool I dye? I will put the pieces of yarn in an A4 size envelope. Once it is full, I will send it. Don't hold your breath till it arrives.

Dinie
December 25th, 2009, 10:39 AM   20
Pierre Galafassi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Larkin
Hi Pierre,
1. Please comment a bit more on the practice of “wool fermentation.” How and why was it done?
Rich Larkin
Hi Rich
In your post from December 3rd (sorry for my high «activation energy») you asked for more details about the fermentation dyeing method: In «Carpets of Central Asia», pages 35-41, V. G. Moshkova describes a number of dyeing recipes which she gathered directly from various tribal weavers, between 1929 & 1946.
Clearly, fermentation methods were still remembered by some Turkoman tribes in the first third of the XX Th. century.
See below two examples:
« Method 1. After seven days a handful of alum was added to a ferment made from four handfuls of barley. One kilogram of yarn was added and kept for fifteen days; It was turned over every day and the solution was stirred. The yarn was then washed and dried (Bezmzin village, Ashgabat region).
Method 2. A bit of «jugara» dough and one handful of alum was added to a ferment made from 1.6 kg. of wheat. The yarn was placed in this solution and left for seven dyes, after which it was washed and dried.»


Apparently, the fermented wool was mostly used for madder dyeing allowing to get more saturated shades and to spread the shade gamut to strong cherry reds for example.
In some recipes mentioned by other sources the «fermented» wool was later dyed in a lukewarm fermenting dye-bath. Weavers spoke of «summer shades» (bath temperatures in the mid 40°C ?) and winter shades (in the mid 30°C ?).
Better late than never, isn’t it?
Regards
Pierre