Posted by Vincent Keers on 06-16-2003 07:36 PM:


Dear Thomas,

You talk about the different shades of colours and the lack of expertise in dying.
But, because i'm into sheep and goats at this moment, couldn't these different shades be the result of different wool? A red on Karakul or a red on Hazaragie. And not to forget the Beloudch sheep.

Before 1979 6.500.000 Karakul sheep in Afghanistan. Most Karakul are dark. So the darker colours could be the result of dark wool to begin with. So maybe it has nothing to do with aesthetics but with production resources?

And, because the Beloudch and Turkmen in Afghanistan are close, is there such a colour difference in Turkmen pieces from Afghanistan and Russia? Because in Russia the breeding was focused on white. Not so in Afghanistan. Maybe a Turkmen specialist can answer this last question?

Best regards,

Posted by Filiberto Boncompagni on 06-17-2003 01:53 AM:

Well, Vincent, I think you have a point here.

Posted by David R.E. Hunt on 06-17-2003 06:21 AM:

Natural Colors in Wools

Vincent and All- Have been following this sheep/wool train of discussion, and have noticed something being said about a natural shade of green being found in sheep wool. Interesting, as I see a lot of this greenish shade in what appears otherwise to be a natural color. My assumption has been that this is a natural brown or grey wool which has been dyed with a green dye- any ideas, references, or suggestions- Dave

Posted by Vincent Keers on 06-17-2003 07:27 AM:

Hi david,

It was me that said that. But I was talking goats. But we do seem to see the same thing.
I think you mean, chemical green in this case. Because dying a grey wool with Sparak and Indigo?
And what happens if the wool is yellow/camel and dyed with Indigo residue?
Maybe some dye specialist out there that knows the answer?

Best regards,

Posted by Patrick Weiler on 06-18-2003 01:07 AM:

More questions than answers


I have read that one reason the Qashqa'i rugs were so much more striking and colorful than many other tribal rugs is that their wool was whiter. This same phenomenon may be at play with the Russian Turkmen rugs compared to the Afghan or Persian Turkmen rugs, as well as with many of the "so called Baluch" rugs.
I noticed from your maps of the Afghan tribal territories and Afghan languages that there were almost no Baluch people from the areas that we are discussing as the sources of most "Baluch" rugs. Perhaps there needs to be a considerable revision of these rugs we have come to know as Baluch.
Tom Cole has presented a case for attributions by region rather than "market place" terminology to more accurately describe the provenance of Baluch rugs. How did they come to be known as Baluch rugs?
The "real" Baluch supposedly mostly wove flatweave items, since they lived in a rather warm area not suitable for heavy rugs.
Many rugs are known from the place they were marketed, such as Shiraz and Mosul rugs, but Baluch rugs are not. When we see a rug labelled Khorassan or Herat, we think of the "city" rugs of large size and curvilinear designs, not small, tribal rugs.

Patrick Weiler

Posted by Vincent Keers on 06-18-2003 06:47 AM:

Hi Patrick,

Well, the Qashqai had their own breed: Qashqai. White and dark spots on the head.
And the Hazaragi in Afghanistan made flatweaves. Nice, because the sheepbreed Hazaragie shows a red/brownish fleece and the flatweaves show the same colours. Very natural.

Think that's my main problem with Belouch, Balouch etc. Found this: It deals with the rise of Pakistan. How fast history changes in my head? I didn't realize Bangla Desh was East-Pakistan. So sorry George. How could I forget!
Maybe because Beloudchistan was divided, it was politically clever to claim the name Beloudch for and export product by Afghanistan? The Pasthun think it should be Pashtun country all together. Some people think Pakistan and Afghanistan should be united.
I think, in the end, we can make attributions on the basis of local (regional) sheepbreed more easy than on the basis of humanbreed. Humans seem to survive everything because they can eat allmost everything. Sheep included. At this moment the Karakul sheep in Afghanistan is allmost extinct. So sheep need to be imported again. Karakul? Don't think so, because the market wants white.

The Turkmen/Beloudch production coming from the Pakistan refugee camps, are more colourful. Even black and white is deyed. Pakistan, Beloudch sheepbreed etc. white wool, factory spun from Pakistan.

Yes many questions,
if only the sheep and goats could talk,

best bluhhhs,

Posted by Vincent Keers on 06-18-2003 07:28 AM:

This is about the nomads/kochees in Afghanistan.

Best regards,