First of all, my thanks to all of you who work to maintain this site and to you who contibute regularly. I enjoy the site and all the information it provides. I do not collect rugs, though I seem to have inherited the collector's gene from my Mom. For now I collect other things - and maybe at some point in the future - rugs. We do, however have several rugs in our home that we have lived with for the past 20 - 25 years. Though none of these rugs are rare or extremely old we have enjoyed them each and every day. Hoping that we would soon add some rugs to "unrugged" areas in our house, I recently began my "detailed person" search for information.

This salon has caused me to pause and consider both how the rug industry (our my perception of it) has has changed over the years since I last bought a rug and to question how a novice like me can avoid the unintentional purchaes of a carpetoid in the future.

My wife and I are from the Midwest (USA) and years ago stumbled across and forged a relationship with an established family owned dealer in a large city about 3 hours away. Most of our rugs came from that source. The family member we dealt with at the store is no longer in the business and visits since then with other family members haven't had the same "feel". I've visted a couple of other dealers in that city, but so far no magic has occurred that would say "Buy here!". In our own city we have an old dealer - if that's the right term. The shop looks like it came out of the 50's and though I sense knowledge there, I don't sense a lot of inventory. Two other dealers opened recently - the first did not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling and the EPA might visit to search for carpetoids. The other is an Iranian with an American wife who (based on a couple of visits) seems friendly and straightforward. But what if my search leads me to other than Iranian production - Turkish, etc.?

I like the old rugs or I should say I like some of them. I think I'm to the point where I know what I like when I see it, but I'm not sure the budget will go there and even if it did I'm looking for something for the floor and not the wall. Elsewhere in this salon (and in others) it was presented that one cannot be certain of vegetable dyes without chemical analysis. From other comments in this salon it also sounds as though the local dealer/importer may contract for and think they're getting vegetable dyes when they may be getting something else. Similarly, I assume one can't readily be aware of wool quality or pesticide level. I also agree with someone's comment that most of the market is for floor coverings without regard for quality - most seem to assume it can be discarded in a few short years. So my question really is that if someone is searching for quality materials and a quality product (and is willing to pay a fair price) where do you go and how do you know with reasonable certainty what you're getting (even with years of study at the novice level)?

Maybe the gang of eight (or nine with Filberto) should hire themselves out as shopper helpers. I could possibly pay with some medium priced wine - which brings me to the other part of the salon. I enjoy wine though I have stayed with the nonexpensive end of the market. Though there are many similarities there are differences as well. I can risk some dollars to try something new and will know soon if it stays on my buy list - if it is good at first and is not loaded with sulfites to fake the taste and produce a headache the next day. But with carpet(oid)s you might not know for several years that you've spent many bottles worth of wine for the wrong thing. "What's a mother to do?"

First, welcome and thanks for joining in.

If you need on-the-spot feedback on potential decisions, I'd suggest going to ACOR or ICOC, where there are hundreds of collectors of various levels of expertise and a dealer fair with something in the ballpark of 50 to 75 dealers, mostly very knowledgable, showing several thousand rugs. The flow of information at these things is rapid, instantaneous (even when unsought!) and pretty uninhibited.

And many of those folks will do 'most anything for a glass wine that they don't have to buy.

Regards,

Steve Price

So, can I visit the ACOR dealers fair without paying that hefty registration fee? Or is there one of those traditional academic/oppressed educator scams? Push in a big aluminum cart? The travel, old house, and rug budgets are under great stresssssss, maybe if I just spent some time actually working for a chan.... nah!

Goodbye, dear old local dealer.
One is out of date and the other American lady with Iranian husband can close up their shop.
No future for them. Can't be trusted! They will poison you, your children, the neighbours, the village etc. etc. That's the main reason for having a shop!

Thanks Mr. Bischof: Great Negative Marketing.
Thanks Steve,
for falling in the trap.

Can't help it, but this seems to upset me.
Cut's right true my rug hart.

Best regards,
Vincent.

You said: but I'm not sure the budget will go there and even if it did I'm looking for something for the floor and not the wall .
My advice, especially after reading Michael’s Salon - and some experience - is this: avoid new rugs unless you are absolutely sure they are effectively rugs and not carpetoids (besides, new rugs made from hand spoon wool and with natural colors have VERY high prices, so from the budget point of view they are out of question). Ancient and old rugs are too expensive…
The only option left is to go for oldish rugs, I mean between sixty and thirty years old. The reason: if they reach this age and they are still attractive and in good shape, that means they are genuine rugs with good wool and good - albeit synthetic - dyes (forget the natural dyes). They should be able to offer many more years of service and the price should be right.
I will be glad to accept a glass (or two) of good wine if we’ll have the chance to meet (one never knows).
Regards,

Filiberto
P.S. C’m on Vincent, have a glass of wine. Drink and forget, as we say in Italy.

I'm sorry to see you so disturbed. If you look back you will note that my advice to newcomers has always been to establish a good relationship with a knowledgable, honest dealer, and to treat him as a treasure. Nothing Michael has said is contradictory to this, although he believes that the consumer can be protected from the other kind of dealer (they do exist, you know) by governmental interventions.

George asked if any of the folks around here could act as "shopper's assistants", and I responded to that request by suggesting that dealer fairs at the major conventions were good places to find lots of volunteer shopper's assistants and get a pretty good education about rugs. I believe you can learn more from 500 collectors and 50 dealers with thousands of rugs than you can from one dealer with hundreds of rugs, but this doesn't diminish the value of a good local dealer. In fact, it helps the person know how to tell whether his local dealer is knowledgable and honest. For the knowledgable, honest dealer, this is a good thing. For the other kind, of course, it isn't.

George asked whether dealer fairs are closed to the general public. Usually they are open for one day during the convention, but for convention registrants only the rest of the time.

Regards,

Steve Price

"negative marketing" is something that I really did not intend to do, quite the opposite. The real world is like it is. It has a kind of "Lubitsch touch". We do not have the power to re-construct it like we would prefer it to be. So let us use our brains to treat it so that we get what we want and need.

The word "cheating" is not appropriate for the carpet market , not even for its low quality-mass scale sector.
Imagine You produce by sophisticated marketing a kind of life-style product and then fix a brand name to it. This is done in the West. Then You move it to the Third World, find a local sub-contractor and let him produce things there, according to local conditions. Then You take the product to a cheap corner of the West, add one label, one little detail more and then call it "made in the USA" or "made in Germany".
The cost to produce it was 2 $ per piece and it is sold with this brand name for 20 $. - This is what happens each day in the fashion textile market. I can assure everybody that such a 1000% profit range does not happen in the carpet market normally. The possible exceptions are Chinese or Kashmiri silk rugs sold as "real" things, like Hereke or so, made in Turkey, in touristic shops at the coast in Turkey, in Istanbul or wherelse. I met Konya production kilims, partially natural dyed, chemical washed, named to be authentic antiquities in Chiang Mai, only 400% over its value.
Even with uprooted pieces, like "Caucasians" or "Turcomans" from Peshawar, "Anatolian" from China
or similar things it does not happen. The highest figure that I ever saw was 600% for a Pakistani "Caucasian", partially natural dyes, chemical washed, in a European retail shop.
And even this finds some excuses. The dealer has to behave so that he can sell his material at the end of the day. I never met anybody in this sphere where I would say he likes to cheat. But if the customer has the attitude to buy a 100 $ thing for 20 $ - and buys only if he is in this feeling ? And if the customer has heard that with carpets bargaining is possilbe ?
Then the dealer has to start with something exaggerated to end up with 120-150. This is what happens daily. To be smart means to be stupid. To buy for 100 or even less if one buys a lot, as a dealer who takes 15-20 pieces, would be better. In this case the dealer has to behave so that the customers gets this „what-a-bargain“ feeling. But who is responsible for this ? ´What came first : the chicken or the egg ? I hold the opinion that it is better just to neglect this pathological collaboration.

The market is not in a desirable status. The analogy to wine was used on purpose. Quite some years ago this market was on the brink of collapse because of events that Csilla Klausner reported correctly. And it took considerable efforts to recover it to the status of today.
One can find and buy the cheap mass scale products as well as top wines - and one can trust the labels !

The intention of my essay was therefore not to enhance negative marketing but to help to focus the attention to the
quality aspects of modern weaving and to the backyard details. I know very well that this approach runs against the main stream of our own culture, which focusses on the look and not on the details of how the product was made. Sorry, Mr. Keers, but a serious marketing should not be based on fairy tales.
A news from today: only 7 out of 18 Harry Potter could be recommended as not negative for the consumer. Too many tin-organic compounds, too many chlorinated plastics ... and these are heavy weights in the world of poison.

Let us together think how to develop a marketing that can face the Lubitsch touch of the real world, that is not negative, but also not ridiculous.

Michael Bischof

anyone know what day I can visit next year's ACOR dealer fair without having to 1) pay the registration fee, or 2) pretend to be the pretzel man?

thanks...

First I have a nip.......Coca Cola!
What happened to the wine was pure, criminal with the intention to make More Money. Don't think the producers where starving. They had a living. But because they had strong competition from abroad, (cheaper wines of good quality made at lower coast), and they didn't want to sell the Mercedes, they needed a higher turnover.
So I think the comparison you're making is like comparing the rich Devil with a poor Angel. Think something must be very wrong in a mind if one puts pure poison in the wine.

Overall, I do agree with you but: But it's the way it's being told. The moment you're talking about poison, crime etc. you can expect these questions at your doorstep:
Can you really guarantee natural colors aren't toxic? Can you really guarantee that because of the expensive natural colors, the weavers will not get laid of? Are Chrome dyes toxic? Can you guarantee the dye conditions are completely save for the dyers? Or are you going to invest in dye machinery, drying machinery, washing machinery etc. How are the rugs going to be clipped? By hand or with lawn mowers? Etc. etc.

What I do not understand is: You must know how difficult it is to get it all right. How to tell people why they should buy natural colored rugs. Why they should invest something more. But all I'm getting is dirt thrown at other less "ethic" producers. You're telling us how rotten this world is and the only thing you come up with is: Labels!
Killing or obstructing the competition wont do the job, because the market will be gone when you're finished.

Tell us how a natural dye is being made.
What ingredients are used.
How are the dyes fixed? (Here in Holland there is a saying: "On a blue monday" something like a lazy monday. This is because the dyers had a day of on monday because the wool was soaking in the "Wede" in an urine bucket.)
What kinds of wool do you prefer.
Show us the happy weavers.
Etc. Pictures we want.
Think you know a lot more, seen a lot more then the average participent on this board.
You've been there.

I'm all yours,
Best regards,
Vincent

Vincent and Michael - I didn't read this salon as negative marketing, though I understand how it could be viewed that way. In all things I believe the buyer needs to be educated. And, at some point you have to trust and take the plunge. If it seems to good to be true it probably is. I don't think the Iranian is out to poison my family with carpetoids. Everyone has to start in business at some point. So just because he hasn't been around for 50 years doesn't mean he's dishonest. But my question was how do I know or at least feel more comfortable since I haven't had a long term relationship with him and the things I'm trying to ascertain may not be visible on the surface - until a few years down the road.

Steve, thanks for the suggestion as to ACOR. That seems like great advice. Having never been there I did not know what things were like or what to expect. Can you tell me what are the "open day(s)" for the dealer fair?

Filiberto, I don't know if you read what I said about new carpets correctly or not. I guess I haven't done enough price shopping to know what you mean by new quality stuff being really expensive. I think though, that if it was quality and I liked it I wouldn't mind paying the price. I don't mind giving the dealer a "fair" profit - especially since I would hope to deal with him again in the future. My question was how do you know the quality, etc. is there?

I also appreciate your suggestion as to the oldish carpets. Again if I like it and it will hold up well to foot traffic synthetic dyes are not a problem assuming they are quality dyes done correctly. I assume this will be known at the 30 year mark.

No, I cannot guarantee this. But look for the dimensions: to produce 1 kg of synthetic colour You produce 8-10 kg highly toxic "Sondermüll" (special garbage ? Something so toxic that it is strictly forbidden to dispose it to some place. To clean it up is too costly so it is exported to poor countries in Eastern Europe). - Some plant extractions are partly toxic, but only if one would drink it. These substances are not build into the final dye lake. And such plants can be easily replaced by others with the same dye stuffs but not such ingredients.
I do not advocate that all new carpets should be naturally dyed ! A misunderstanding. I do not attack any mass production. Potassium bichromate is, to the best of my knowledge, the strongest known co-allergenic and co-carcinogenic substance. Today, in 2001, I would not even touch milligramms of it.
In the sixties it was no problem for anybody. The same with formaldehyde etc. .... This is increased enormously by the fact that in the carpet producing countries these jobs are done by cheap, uneducated labourers. "We have enough people ... " is what You would hear. Pictures: go to the Nigde area in Turkey . A place like 2-3 soccer fields, fulls of leather garbage, blue from chromium. Kids play in it, dogs ... An educated guy would be safe with natural dyes, yes. But: such education is normally not available over there. Second: for economical reasons Indigoid dyes must be done with hydro sulphite, a toxic material that releases a lot of sulfur dioxide (the headache substance in cheap wines !) when the wool is taken out of the vat. Yes, we invested a lot in such things and into technology. I am "pro-tech-nology", not opposite. But for advanced "soft" technology without any unnecessary synthetic chemi-cal substance. The rugs are clipped by hand, sometimes using these little electric clippers that a coiffeur uses.
How to tell ? Very easy: if done right they have a superb aesthetic. Plus: in case they are not chemical washed (killed) they improve while being used. If they are killed they start to decay when the use starts.
If they are washed they go down. - Buy a real good natural dyed small piece, a yastik, from hand-spun wool ( hand spindle, not a spinning wheel !), and sit on it, day by day. Once a year just wash it in rain water, nothing else, and enjoy how it improves, develops lustre and shine. Or use a pullover from such material. Just test it. The only condition: it must not be chemically washed, then it is a "carpetoid".

Natural dyes are made using Aluminium or iron as metal mordants (some other metals,non-toxic, are used additionally), suitable acids to keep the metal ions dissolved (soft organic acids if the dyeing price allows it), organic chemicals to fix the mordant. The dye stuff is released from the plant and applied to the fibre. If the light fastness must be high quite a lengthy process of post-fixation of the dye lakes is required, again using "soft" chemicals that occur in nature as well (pH in all processes are between 3 and 8,5 except for Indigo that might be 9,5 with wool). The highest level we can make is done so that each processing fluid can be drunk if the pH is driven to pH 7. This is all possible.
We even developed extracts from dye plants. A deep, blueish violet only from madder -the key dye that collectors like to discuss - can be done with it in 2 hours (only the dyeing part) in any kitchen in a water bath of 50°C. If You keep in mind what water problems we will have in this century it is important that these natural dyeing processes can easily be optimized so that they need only a fraction of what the synthetic processes need.
Wool: what the price area permits. The ultimate quality that we use in small amounts is washed in a river without soap, not combed, picked from the vleece and spun with a kirman spindle. The best wool we have is combed using a jay (a kind of arrow), spun with a tese spindle, hair-thin and would cut deeply into Your skin when You try to tear it. Happy weavers: You either come to Karaman in Turkey or You correspond with Brian Morehouse or Bethany Mendenhall/Charles Lave by e-mail. These are well known in the American carpet subculture, as I guess.
There are not that much happy weavers. One big firm from Istanbul got government credits to play in
the real estate business in the Nurosmaniye Caddesi in Istanbul. Because the official reason for the credit was to create jobs in the country side they used a small part of the money to open a kind of workshop in Karaman and Taskale. They did not invest in know how but hired a cheap guy from Konya who did natural dyes that he got from Western hobby dyeing books. When they had to hurry they delivered wet (!) yarns to the weavers. They had to wrap up them. Because the alkali from the cheap hydro sulphite/caustic soda process was not removed sufficiently (know how !) about 40 weavers got inflammations on their hands and arms. These cheap natural dyes make them dirty, in addition. So, as I admit: "natural" alone does not make the world happy. Again it depends on the details. Such stories are abundant in these countries... I have no intention to publish the names of such guys but could easily drop them with some trustful "third persons" if You like.

Do not misunderstand me. I am engaged with weaves since the beginning of the seventies. It is like
Walter Benjamin stated: if You want to discover new things move close to the subject, so close that it starts to look alien to You, kind of strange. Then You will start to discover ...
The positive excitement from rugs and their environment is still there. But I reject that I must be stupid
to sell happy messages ... in a famous Patricia Highsmith novel the (empathy collecting) hero is a murderer. So much for the ambivalence of real life. It is not that bad ...

Yours sincerely

Michael Bischof

( One thing I forgot: I lived from 1992-1998 in Karaman, in a mud brick house in the Türkmen Evleri Mahalle , as the only foreigner in this big province, to come close to those things)

The trick for rug buyers is ascertaining whether the rug they want to buy will meet their needs, present and future. One simple thing you can do (and it's not foolproof) is to scratch the pile back and forth about twenty times with your fingernail. If you wind up with a little pile of wool fibers, you can be pretty sure that - for whatever reasons - the rug will not last very long.

That's all I can reveal. I'm bound by the Ruggie Oath. You'll have to learn The Handshake of the Initiated yourself.

Cordially,

-Jerry-

Thanks for the effort and time. Highly appreciated.
Think telling a positive story over and over, hearing yourself talking as you speak while the world goes on the same way as before (more polution, more toxic waste etc) gets to you, in the long run.
I've been in India and Nepal, seen the production, dyeing, washing plants, drying in the sun and in huge hairblowers etc.
I've tried to convince clients not to buy the polished stuff, but to go for the genuine rug. Mostly I got this look from them as if I was telling them bull, and, more terrible, I know of some cases that same clients bought reall Pakistan Silk Karachi. Yes, I got sick of it.
I'm not the Donkey Shocking (Oops Patrick is making eyes at me) kind of guy.
Some Gabeh producers in Iran label the rugs with Natural dyes only. Top of the piles all bleached. Don't think labels are the way to go.
It's a salon, (I would've liked it more if the wine was left to itself), like this that's one way of getting the info out in a positive, direct way.
Simply by telling your part of the story.
There's a lot to be learned,
thanks again.

Best regards,
Vincent

now it is hopefully clear that dealer-bashing was not the intention of the essay.

Let us try to be more positive and approach to the subject of new weaves from the opposite side, not from the backyard tricks but from what can be done and should be done.

First decide what one wants/needs:
a weave with physical contact (to sit on it, lay on it) or just something for the floor ?

How high levelled is the aesthetic demand ? Must it fit to excellent antique village rugs/kilims or not ? Does it fit to a modern furniture style plus a trained eye or not ?
Or is the main task to substitute some antique „real" rug and should look somehow similar, that means „mellowed"/pastel ?

For the first task one needs the best, if the budget is not sufficient reduce the size and thereby the prize. Hand-combed wool, hand -spun (spindle !), saturated, expertedly done 100% natural dyes, under no circumstances chemical wash – that would be, technically, the standard to meet. Class 1 b would be pieces that are done from ready designs (production), 1 a pieces done by a skillful weaver who is able to weave based on her own tradition (that automatically excludes areas without an own authentic textile culture, no uprooted pieces allowed) without alien designs and one should rather call it modern textile art.

In order to substitute antique carpets of established designs like the „normal" late Caucasians or Turcomans one does not need hand spun wool at all. And one should not apply natural dyes ! The reason: natural dyes are safe against fading only if they are
a. expertedly done
b. saturated enough
You may look at any traditional antique weave, matching Your personal taste or not, and realize that this tradition, more than 2000 years old, always applied saturated dyes. Early (!)Turcomans and some Baluch may serve as examples
not for the best dyes but for optimal saturation.

With aluminium or iron as mordant one can reach the light fastness 5 (from the 1-8 scale) only with high saturation. 4 would not be sufficient for a long lasting, expensive consumer good. - Chrome is a stronger mordant that gives a fastness of 5 even when applied in lighter tones. For this mellowed aim
one has (a) to dye „bad" on purpose to get the expected abrash or one has to (b) artificially damage the dyes by means of chemical washing (post-treatment of the yarns or of the piece). It would be beneficial but unlikely to invest a bit more into the know how of the dyers over there and make sure that after this treatment ( b creates carpetoids !) at least there is no chlorine stink coming out of the yarns/pieces.

The basic rule is easy: if tricks are forbidden then one has to use good yarns, good dyes, a smooth weave in order to produce a nice look. You buy what You see. In case tricks are allowed one can save money – by using cheaper wool,
dyes and weaving skills – and will get nevertheless a sufficient good look. The customer buys the finished piece, in other terms: the combination of original quality plus finishing.
The wine example was choosen exactly for this reason: the lower the amount of „improvements" is the better the genuine wine must be. And all this works only if labels are trustworthy.
In the Orient the carpet business is mentally in the primitive,traditional corners of the society. It does not matter how posh the shops in Istanbul or Tehera look like, how modern the cellular phones or the computer systems of the firms are. In this subculture it is not a big thing to cheat with details which are principally open to scientifical analysis. People really do not realize it or they are convinced that this never will happen. - If I compare the rug business with Western fashion business I find the amount of lies sold here to be higher. But our style is different. For us is seems to be childish to cheat with measurable details/warranties so we use more sophisticated means and accept cheap junk from Third World sweat shops as distinguished high class textiles, for the mere fact that an established trade mark is printed on them.

Marketing:
- „As for thieves being cheated, there are cases of robbers successfully suing their victims for having been injured by the victim while attempting to rob them" Csilla Klausner wrote. We had such a case here. Vincent, not with carpets ! A world famous producer of cosmetics put a synthetic lustre-enhancing substance into a hair shampoo, silicone ( the cheapest method to make mediocre wool shiny in the antique business.). This left residues with each application. A well known coiffeur published an article about this subject claiming that the silicone residues prevented a proper application of hair dyes for his customers. The case is crystal clear for anybody with a slight chemical education: silicone promotes hydrophobic effects, no doubt. The big firm blackmailed the guy to stop this negative propaganda. Otherwise they wanted to tear him to a court. Because the costs of courts here are derived from the potential damage sum this was such a high fiancial risk that the guy had to stop to express his opinion – though he was and is right. Plus: tricky lawyers could force him there to finance expensive research to witness the damage. The necessary research level one can easily drive upwards. One professor more whose expertise needs to be countered ...
- Americans achieved one thing while Europa stayed on the eco-friendly bla-bla-level. On each piece of cosmetic product a list of the ingredients must be printed in the US, according to a (complicated ) system of abbreviations compiled by the CTFA, the Cosmetics Toiletries Fragrancies Association. As an insider You can easily assess the real value of the product and find out whether it will have certain unwanted or even dangerous side effects. It is not easy to break through the protection wall of this chemical argot – but it is possible. The system now is universal, our guys are forced to cope with it in order to export to the US market. A real breakthrough !
- "This is a shoddy carpetoid made in Xyzistan by small children chained to their looms using toxic chemicals and wool from DDT-fed sheep; caveat emptor!") . Yon, such a thing will not happen. And why only for carpets and not for ... designer jeans, ..... sports shoes etc. ? No, scientifically measurable things like what dyes have been used, what chemicals where applied in the finishing process (and what not ) would be sufficient.

Yours sincerely

Michael