Dear all
As shown in my essay the “Italian palmette” seems to be related to the “egg palmette” sometimes called “amphora palmette” appearing in early Caucasian floral rugs.

Here are other, less well known, examples illustrated in several auction catalogs, showing a clear evolution of the design and its latest stage of evolution as it appears in 19th century Caucasian – Lenkoran rugs.

From left to right:
1/CL - October 17th – 1996 – Plate 403 - Karabagh Blossom carpet first half 18th century or earlier
2/SNY - April 4 – 2001 – Plate 29 - Caucasian Blossom carpet – early 18th century
3/SL- April 21 –1999 – plate 144 – Sunburst blossom carpet early 18th century
4/ SNY – Feb 16 – 2000 – Plate 11 – Lenkoran circa 1880

In the next picture I show other palmettes in Lori Pambak, Bijar and Shield Kuba or Shirvan rugs which may also be related to the “Italian palmette” but here the connections are less clear.

From left to right:
1/SNY – April 29 – 1998 – Plate 57 – Proto Lori Pambak rug – first half 19th century
2/ CL – Oct 15 – 1996 – cover – Bijar rug -
3/SNY – April 7 – 1999 – Plate 123 – Caucasian Shield rug – 18th century
4/S-GENOVA – May 14 – 1985 – Plate 102 - Kuba rug – dated 1898 – Armenian inscriptions

In an extensive article in the inaugural issue of Hali magazine (see Pinner, Robert and Franses, Michael “Caucasian Shield carpets” Hali Vol. 1, N°1, pp 4-22) the authors discuss how the field designs evolve from earlier Ottoman and Safavid textiles.
As I haven’t this article I would be very pleased to learn more about this topic. In my opinion, the “egg palmette”, which was may be the prototype of the “Italian” palmette shows clear Ottoman Saz style connections.

Many thanks for sharing your thoughts with us,

Daniel

In many of the old rug books curvilinear designs are seen as both prior and aesthetically superior to rectilinear versions of seemingly similar devices that are often also estimated to be later.

But in our own age, some of us, sometimes, find that some rectilinear versions can be more aesthetically satisfying than their putative curvilinear "ancestors." For example, a conventionalized design of the sort shown here in "the Italian rug," can actually sometimes have more graphic impact for us than do the "softer," admittedly more complex lines of the earlier curvilinear versions.

Kurdish weavers can sometimes produce a rectilinear version of an earlier curvilinear design that seems clearly more aesthetically successful (often color is importantly implicated in this particular success) than its "parent."

My own favorite story about a move from a curvilinear design to a potentially superior rectilinear version is recounted by Cecil Edwards in his Heriz chapter on The Persian Carpet.

Edwards says that if you ask a Heriz weaver for her "pattern" she will invariably produce a small curvilinear image, often in two colors, from which she can produce (without a further cartoon) carpets with a rectalinear version of this design in a dozen colors of any size you wish. Edwards clearly thinks this is a remarkable act, despite the fact that elsewhere in his book he is clear about feeling that the old curvilinear designs from the Kerman area are his own personal aesthetic favorites.

Anyway, Daniel's presentation of these palmette sequences triggered this musing for me again.

As a postscript, I know of one rug analyst who refuses to indulge in any estimates of the aesthetic superiority or inferiority of any of the instances in such a series of seemingly similar rug design devices. For example, she absolutely refuses to use a word like "degenerate," in this context (something the writers of the old rug book did a lot). While I have caught her talking about "development" (which could be read to suggest that later versions are in fact superior in some sense to earlier ones) she moves quickly to make clear that she is only referring to a likely sequence in time, not to any notion of aesthetic quality.

For her, such differences are merely differences and she avoids any related aesthetic judgments concerning them at all.

The old rug book writers and most of us are not this even-handed.

Regards,

R. John Howe

The influence of the Egg Palmette on the Lenkoran Medallion seems clear enough, but I think the way it is presented may be misleading to some readers. Your series of images (the series with the Lenkoran as the final of four images) implies a historical progression, and I think this is overreaching the evidence. We don't really know that the Lenkoran medallion is a much later development than the others, or even that the others are a series that represents some events occurring in that order.

It would take many more than four examples to demonstrate that, especially in view of the uncertainty in age attributions of all four.

Regards,

Steve Price

You state that the so-called "egg palmette", which might be the prototype of the Italian rug palmette, shows clear Ottoman Saz style connections. This may be true, but I think there are other connections that are probably clearer and that come from another direction. That is the direction of Persia, Herat and ultimately China.

In describing the egg palmette as it appears in a group of Sunburst Caucasian rugs, Charles Grant Ellis stated: "Along the sides of the field, may appear a motley assemblage of spider-like, heavily fringed palmettes, some with great, claw-like leaf forms, and egg-shaped floral palmettes open at one end. (Fig. 16) This figure seems to have been borrowed from Persian vase carpets, as was also the "chi", or clenched fungus form, which can be seen in dragon carpets as well. See Early Caucasian Rugs page 20.

The consensus seems to be that the influence of Persian vase carpets on the so-called dragon carpets as well as Chinese elements as interpreted in the former seems to me at least as influential as Ottoman Saz styles. Consider the "blazon" palmette form depicted as illustration (fig.) 1 in the same book. There we see a palmette flanked by its dragon supporters. According to Ellis, "the oldest and purest of these (dragon carpets) show the recognizable forms of dragons and other animals, drawn at second hand, in a geomeric manner, from the arts of China." Id. at 10.

Going back to the egg palmette, I think we must consider what Ellis referred to elsewhere as "the crude vernacular of the Caucasus." See Id. page 32. What Ellis is referring to is the tendency of the dragon carpet to interpret what Ellis and others would consider the delicate vine latticing of the Persian vase carpet into a stiffer, more static, geometric form. In fact, I would go so far as to suggest the possibility that the egg palmette really has its origins in two separate design elements. The first being possibly a lotus palmette form that appears in many of the earliest known examples (or another floral palmette form). The second device being simply the remmnant of a floral lattice seen in a drop repeat format in many of the earliest dragon carpets. It is possible that the palmette eventually dropped down and became supported by the remmnants of a lattice much in the way the original "blazon" palmette was "supported" by dragons. It is even possible that the supports or extensions off the egg palmette can be understood as Chinese cloudbands that exited in earlier carpets with drop repeat patterns in a row separate from lotus palmettes. That somehow, the Cloudband came to be geometricized and a "support" for the palmette.

This does not answer the question of whether the egg palmette has any connection to the devices found in the field of the Italian rug. When I first handled this rug, I thought it was a Shirvan rug. However, there are a lot of Persianate influences in it too. To me, I think it one of these difficult to place transitional carpets that form the bridge between production of the 18th century and before with the more well known production of the late 19th century.

Regarding the other palmettes you show in later rugs. I think we need to be careful. There were so many palmette forms that evolved in local vernacular that it is difficult to come to any conclusions. Understanding the harshang, avshan and related patterns as they came down to us is a career in and of itself. In addition, there are split arabesque traditions that are distinct. No. 2, the bijar rug you show is an example of this. I believe that it is worthwhile to go through many of the carpets in Serare Yetkin's book, Early Caucasian Carpets. There one may see many palmette forms as well as the process that may have been in work that led to the egg palmette. Beyond that, we need in my view to go to the designs of the early Persian vase carpets of south and central Persia as well as to Chinese designs.

A most interesting Salon, thank you.

Michael Wendorf

As a further note, consider the carpet fragment depicted as plate 83 in Volume I, Early Caucasian Carpets by Yetkin. There depicted is a floral carpet of the Turk ve Islam Museum acquired from the Mosque of Vize Celebi at Edirne. There are cloudbands in this carpet both vertically and horizontally that surround small palmettes. If you imagine this simplified with the cloudbands geometricized and the palmettes lowered, you could see a possible transition to the egg palmette. Something similar could have happened from the avshan pattern as well. As stated above, it could also be as simple as the remmnant of a lattice.

Something to think about. Thanks again, Michael

I don't recall seeing any Lenkoran rugs that were attributed to before the mid-19th century, but that doesn't mean there were none.

The Lenkoran medallion, or something very much like it, does appear on the skirts of Salor ensis, just about all of which (I think there are fewer than 10 known examples) were presumably made before the near extermination of the Salor by the Tekke in the first half fo the 19th century. The accompanying Salor motifs, also apparently related, are generally read as stylized birds, not as floral elements. This makes me wonder whether the historical progression leading to the Lenkoran medallion includes the egg palmette at all.

Regards,

Steve Price

And why not the other way round?
Why do you not wonder whether there really is a connection of these motifs in the skirts of Salor ensis and the representation of animals? Would it be surprising to find (a part of) a palmette on a Salor ensi?

Best regards,
Christoph

On the other hand, they are traditionally interpreted as part of the family of stylized birds tha appear along with them, and there is always a possibility that the traditional wisdom is correct.

Regards,

Steve

Date: 07-17-2001 on 05:46 p.m.

On the other hand, they are traditionally interpreted as part of the family of stylized birds tha appear along with them, and there is always a possibility that the traditional wisdom is correct.

Regards,

Steve

Date: 07-17-2001 on 05:46 p.m.

There's no reason I can think of why it is implausible that the egg palmette winds up on Salor ensi skirts. Daniel argued that the Lenkoran medallion is a very late invention on the basis of his being unaware of anything prior to 1850 showing it. I called attention to the Salor ensis, since they must have been made earlier - by 1850 there were almost no Salor left!

On the other hand, they are traditionally interpreted as part of the family of stylized birds tha appear along with them, and there is always a possibility that the traditional wisdom is correct.

Regards,

Steve

Date: 07-17-2001 on 05:46 p.m.

On the other hand, they are traditionally interpreted as part of the family of stylized birds tha appear along with them, and there is always a possibility that the traditional wisdom is correct.

Regards,

Steve

Date: 07-17-2001 on 05:46 p.m.