When I look at a rug, feel etc. I think I know what I'm looking at. But sometimes, when the rug is flipped, I'm confused. It doesn't look as expected. This is the moment the exitement gets in. You're confused."What the ... am I looking at?"

Looking at a "normal" stock in a rugshop, the backs can tell you where to look, and where not to if you're looking for something special. Heriz, Tabriz, Bidjar, Afghanazaks (think I'll register this one) copies, Hamadan, glued, etc. (I'm waiting for Afghanahamadanazaks to show up).
In short, I'm looking for a rug that's going to make specialists take off through the backdoor. And I'll be the first to leave, for I'm making mistakes by the dozens, and by making mistake, upon mistake I finaly know what it isn't.

Very nice Tabriz rugs are being made in Nain. Doesn't show on the back, you just have to pull out 2, 3 knots and look very closely at what's happening in between the depressed warps. Is the Nain-Tabriz bad? No, it's production costs are lower. Why? They had the production capacity available.

It's a very non-romantic world out there.

Best regards,

Vincent

Yes, if I follow your point, it seems that there have been periods when, although rug designs moved around, rug structure was more stable. Rugs from such periods do provide information on the backs that can be helpful in attribution. And some of us feel that we can "read" it pretty accurately.

But it is true with new rugs now being made in a variety of locations with not just hand-spun wools and natural dyes but also traditional structures FROM OTHER LOCATIONS, that things can get very confusing.

There is an experienced collector and dealer here in Washington, who's pretty good at attribution but whom I torment sometimes by taking in one of the new Ersari Turkmen pieces I buy from Chris Walters' Cultural Survival coop. This collector/dealer usually suspects now that these pieces are new but the combination of traits they exhibit confuse him and he usually finally says, "Is this another of those?"

But sometimes when I first brought them he was genuinely puzzled about what they were. These new pieces both catered to and violated in some sense(s) his picture of what an older Ersari should be.

And it's likely to get worse. People 50 years from now are often going to have real difficulty determining whether a given piece is 50 years old, or 100 or even by then 150 years old.

On the other hand, this sort of thing has been happening at some level for some time. The Venetians were in Goa in the 14th century. The Ottomans had Italians making velvets in Turkey under official license in the 15th century. Conquerors often took skilled craftsmen home after their victories. One early Mughol emperor took Persian weavers home to India when he returned from exile. Guess what structures they used. There's still a lot of debate about which rugs were woven in Persia and which in Mughol territory.

Regards,

R. John Howe

One of your statements particularly caught my eye: People 50 years from now are often going to have real difficulty determining whether a given piece is 50 years old, or 100 or even by then 150 years old.

I think the opposite. One reason attribution of antique pieces is so dificult and error-prone is that we have so little documentation of who made what prior to the 20th century. Until fairly recently, for example, it was common to believe that Yomud pentagonal asmalyks were bags, the apex being at the bottom. I've seen a few that even had the pompoms sewn on in that orientation.

Modern production is very well documented - ads in HALI, for instance. Many dealers in new material know exactly who made the stuff of the past 25 years (or more) and almost exactly when it was made. This information isn't likely to vanish, so identifying the origin and age of pieces made since the middle of the 20th century will probably always be pretty accurate.

Regards,

Steve Price

I can only report what happened. I've looked at Chris' production enough now that I think its one of the few categories of rug that I could recognize without much more information than weave pattern but they have "thrown" this rather knowledgeable person in the past. Of course, my act is now getting a little old.

Steve -

I know some dealers (and collectors) who are now encountering new items that they cannot reliably distinguish from older ones. Copies of Caucasian sumack bags done by Afghans using old kilim wool is one such group but I know a dealer who has been selling Woven Legends pile rugs for about as long as they've been around and who also offers hand washing and he says he is amazed at how much more like old rugs these new pieces look and feel after only 6-7 years of use and a washing.

Another local dealer told me he was in the NY market a week or so ago and was admiring some nice Persian Bijars and especially their condition, given their apparent age. He told me that he ultimately had to be rescued by the wholesaler he was dealing with who said to him, of course, you know that these are new pieces?

I certainly agree that the documentation is better but if experienced people are sometimes being fooled a bit now, what's that same material going to be like 50 years hence and isn't it plausible that it will be harder still then to distinguish it from even older material?

I think wool quality will often be a guide then, since sorting does not seem to be done much and most wool is being homogenized, so to speak and is therefore of a lower quality. But I have seen some new Caucasian pile rugs woven with very good wool and a very traditional weave pattern.

Regards,

R. John Howe

Whether the collectors of the future will be able to distinguish between rugs from 1900 or 1950 versus those made in 2000 depends to a large extent upon which type of rug is being discussed.

Chris Walters' Ersari line is relatively well known and advertised. In addition, he seems not to be trying to duplicate the weave and design of antique rugs. The same could be said of the Woven Legends lines.

However, there are many rugs now being produced in India, China, Azerbaijan and other areas that copy the look and structure of older rugs. Sometimes they copy the indigenous weaving, sometimes not. Some of the new Indian production is intended to look just like antique Saruks, for example, while China is producing and selling (ironically, in Turkey) silk rugs that look just like Herekes.

It is hard enough to distinguish some of this new production from the old now. Imagine how much more difficult it will be after some of these pieces have seen floor use for a few years.

You might not confuse some new Azerbaijani rugs as being from 1875, but you might well wonder if they are from 1925. Again, dating these will be difficult for collectors in another 10 or 15 years. Who among us is interested in or knowledgeable about Azerbaijani rugs made between 1925 and 1975?

There are other copying practices that further confuse the issues. Some rugs are being woven on old foundations using old kilim wool for the pile. Are these old or new?

Steve, I don't think modern production is well documented. The new production that is the best documented is the least likely to deceive. Yes, it is true that some dealers know exactly who wove what, but dealers are among those who are taken in by the modern copies. With copies being made all over the world, it is difficult for anyone to have a comprehensive knowledge of the extensive attribution problems. Who besides Emmett Eiland has even written about new rugs?

Copying techniques have improved markedly in the last 10 years. Who knows what we will witness over the next 10. The origin of some high-end pieces is already a problem.

Best to all,

Wendel

Looks like I'm wrong again. I really hate when that happens.

Steve Price

I have just one small "nit" about what you've written above concerning Chris Walter's Ersari Turkmen production in Pakistan refugee camps.

It is true that he is not trying to pass the pieces made in his coops as old pieces. And it is also true that his structure is somewhat different from most older Ersari pieces. (But it is rather close to the structure of some younger Ersari pieces.) He is depressing warps somewhat more than they usually did in many of the old pieces.

And most of his production is inscribed (bad calligraphy) with the name of the weaver (usually a family), the name of the camp and the date (year) the rug was made. I do, though, own several of his pieces that are not inscribed.

But it is definitely not true that he is not using older traditional Ersari patterns. (I have researched and sent him some that he has used. Look at the plate on 115 in Emmet Eiland's "Oriental Rugs Today. I do not think he made that design before I found it on an Ersari rug in the TM collection and special ordered a copy of it that sits behind me right now as I type.)

He will make the designs of other tribes. (I own about three smallish asmalyks with Yomud "jewelry" designs.)

And although his madders tend usually to be less saturated than many encountered in older Ersari weaving, I have a 6 X 8 with a mina khani field design with a deeply saturated red ground (which I specified on special order) and drawing and colors that remind me of an older bag face that Michael Craycraft offered me once saying that it was likely Ersari but could be made by Amu Dyra Salors.

In important ways Chris claims to be continuing to do things in traditional Ersari ways. That's what the name "Cultural Survival" clearly signals. While I don't think he would claim that there has been no break in the Ersari tradition, I think he does feel that in important ways he is helping refugee Ersaris discover their own cultural roots and go on in terms of them.

But except for this small nit, my projection of the future is very similar to yours.

Regards,

R. John Howe

When I was in his shop a couple of months ago, Chris seemed to have a lot of Tibetan rugs. Some were gabbeh-like, but none were prospects for deceiving collectors 50 years hence.

Wendel

This thread is getting awfully close to being a discussion of Chris Waller, his shop, and the rugs he sells there. I ask that it either end or change direction.

Thanks,

Steve Price

According to a friend recently back from Turkey embroidery is also being produce today in Lakai styles.

R