TurkoTek Discussion Boards

Subject  :  The Blunted Sides Phenomenon
Author  :  Wendel Swan
Date  :  10-02-2000 on 12:57 p.m.
For several years I have observed, but not been able to provide an explanation for, a design phenomenon that seems to pervade nearly all Middle Eastern and Central Asian rug producing cultures: "blunted sides" on medallions. The filikli and the Oushak yastik have virtually nothing in common except that the tops and bottoms (on the vertical axis) of the medallion in each are pointed while the sides (on the horizontal axis) are blunted. Something similar happens in the medallions found in bags and pile carpets from Northwest Persia and the Caucasus. Look at these images from one pile and four sumak bags. The vertical axis is clearly more pointed than the horizontal. One can observe the same phenomenon among Turkmen guls, particularly those of the Tekke and Salor. I have not made a tabulation of the number of medallions displaying the "blunted sides" syndrome, and there clearly are some exceptions, but it is a design feature that seems to be almost universal. The question is: why? If these medallions originated in slit tapestry, one would, I think, expect just the opposite result; the points would be on the horizontal axis. The image of the "Coptic" medallion is not to demonstrate any particular connection with any of the other medallions, but merely to illustrate that this phenomenon has at least one precedent from over 1,000 years ago. Any thoughts or comments, readers? Wendel

Subject  :  RE:The
Author  :  R. John Howe
Date  :  10-02-2000 on 03:39 p.m.
Hi Wendel - Interesting observation. I personally haven't the foggiest notion of why this phenomenon should exist. Notice there's the related question of why it seems in some cases to have been applied at the level of the outside silhouette of a device (as in your first two Turkish examples) and in others it appears applied mostly to internal instrumentation of larger devices (as in the Turkmen usages, excepting the ertman gul). Nice well-constructed, colorful, comparative post. Regards, R. John Howe

Subject  :  RE: The
Author  :  Wendel+Swan
Date  :  10-02-2000 on 06:32 p.m.
Dear John, While the effect is much more subtle on the outside silhouette of the Turkmen guls, I believe that you will see that they too are more blunted on the sides than they are at the top and bottom. Notice on the perimeters of the Tekke, Saryk and the second Salor guls that the lines leading to the tops and the bottoms are all on a diagonal, whereas no diagonal lines lead to the extremities of the sides. The result on these three examples is that they almost appear rounded at the tops and bottoms, but not so on the sides. The second Salor gul is the clearest example of this "rounding" illusion. Even the "curled" elements just inside the perimeter seem more curvilinear. The gul from the Jenkins Salor is the only one shown with diagonal lines leading to the top and bottom. I hesitate to quantify my observations, but it seems to me that most Turkmen guls and most medallions are symmetries of two parts only, not four part symmetry. It may be that we are dealing with a convention so ancient and widespread that no one can proffer a reason, but I'd like to see if a plausible explanation can be found. Wendel

Subject  :  RE:The
Author  :  Vincent Keers
Date  :  10-02-2000 on 08:24 p.m.
Dear all, I always thought it was because of the perspective. I've made a picture, because I had some second thoughts. A is B with the horizontal corners missing. A1 = perspective A2 = Same size all three. B1 = perspective B2 = Same size all three. A1 compared with B1 doesn't show much. A2 compared with B2 looks as if A2 gets bigger the way up but they are all the same size. B2 all look the same size. Conclusion: The greater the distance the more flattend the object looks. So if I make it longer, by stretching it vertically from my point of view, it will look more balanced. But if I'm having the chaotic mind-switch again, don't hesitate in correcting me. And....I'm very happy, no tessellation is involved here........there isn't....is there? Good night, sleep tight, Vincent

Subject  :  RE:The Blunted Sides Phenomenon
Author  :  Marvin Amstey
Date  :  10-02-2000 on 08:58 p.m.
mamstey1@rochester.rr.com Couldn't this "blunted side" phenomenon simply be a stylization of a hexagon? Regards, Marvin

Subject  :  RE:The Blunted Sides Phenomenon
Author  :  Steve Price
Date  :  10-02-2000 on 08:59 p.m.
sprice@hsc.vcu.edu Dear People, It should be noted that, with regard to the Turkmen guls, Jim Allen pointed out the perspective-like element of the way they are drawn in an article in HALI about 10 years ago. Steve Price

Subject  :  RE:The Blunted Sides Phenomenon
Author  :  Yon Bard
Date  :  10-02-2000 on 09:09 p.m.
How's this for a theory: Originally, the medallion shapes were developed to fit into elongated rugs, so naturally they tended to be elongated in one direction and flattened in the other. Then people started making wide objects like bag faces, and the medallions adapted themselves by becoming wide too, but the tradition of flattening the sides was so strong that it remained even with the wide medallions. Regards, Yon

Subject  :  RE:The Blunted Sides Phenomenon
Author  :  Vincent Keers
Date  :  10-02-2000 on 09:40 p.m.
Dear Steve, So I didn't invent the perspective myself? So, everything has been said already? Would you be so kind in informing me upfront next time. I'm in a pit now. A dark hole in perspective. Got to find myself a ladder....some matches but first..... re-invent myself. "Sunyata" Jim Allen? A wise man indeed. Best regards, Vincent

Subject  :  RE: Perspective in Turkmen Weavings
Author  :  Steve Price
Date  :  10-03-2000 on 09:54 a.m.
sprice@hsc.vcu.edu Dear Vincent, Jim Allen's article is in HALI #55, p. 98. He does deal with the issue of perspective in Turkmen textiles, but from a very different perspective (did I really say that?) than what's being discussed here. You tried to explain the "flattening" of guls as being a way of representing perspective. Since most folks agree that flattening of guls becomes more pronounced in younger Turkmen textiles, this form of perspective (if that's what it is) would be fairly recent in the Turkmen group. Jim Allen's thesis is that not the guls per se, but the entirety of Turkmen juvals had a representation of perspective, particularly the oldest ones. The way it is achieved is by making the guls progressively smaller from bottom to top, and making the outlining of the lower part of the guls thicker than the outlining of the upper part. This is related to the present topic in the sense that the notion of perspective enters into both, but really is another matter entirely. I hope this gives you some comfort. Regards, Steve Price

Subject  :  RE:The Blunted Sides Phenomenon
Author  :  Vincent Keers
Date  :  10-03-2000 on 11:01 a.m.
Thank You Steve, I'm a life and kicking again...... I know where I got the idea from: A photographer drew? an elongated square, between the cows, in the grasfield. He climbed up is 1960 Volkswagen-van-roof and took a picture from the elongated square, wich wasn't a square to begin with. The picture showed an exact square. If he had drawn a square, the picture would have shown a flattend, more wider square. It's an artform in photografics, but I forgot the name. Something to do with nature... Maybe someone has a plan of old Persian, Central Asian gardens. I do not recollect the Taj-Mahal garden in India. Are the squares in the centre shorter then the squares at the borders, if we take the marble building as central viewing point. The guy loved symmetrie. Best regards, Vincent

Subject  :  RE:The Blunted Sides Phenomenon
Author  :  Vincent Keers
Date  :  10-03-2000 on 11:25 a.m.
Ooops, Steve, you mentioned "flattend gülls are more recent"? But we aren't discussing "flattend gülls". W'are discussing the "Blunted" effect at the left and right side of the güll. As my picture showed, I, and the people I showed the drawing without comment, the cutting of the two triangles at both sides, produced an optical illusion, as if the "Blunted" gülls have more interior space. But in reality, I made them smaller then the original. Best regards, Vincent

Subject  :  RE:The Blunted Sides Phenomenon
Author  :  Kenneth Thompson
Date  :  10-03-2000 on 12:46 p.m.
wkthompson@aol.com Dear all Yon may be onto something. Assuming that the various cultures involved are not copying a particular medallion shape from one another, one would look for a structural explanation for the blunt sides. Not being a weaver, I don’t how much harder it is to have pointed sides than to have points at the top and bottom of a medallion. On the other hand, if the weavers were working from a common model, could it be that the original device (large rosette, Chinese Collar) also had rounded or blunt sides? The only medallions that I can think of this moment that are not consistently blunted are the diamonds in Kurdish weavings, which would argue against a purely technical explanation. Unless it has to do with offset knotting. Any other thoughts along these lines? Regards, Ken

Subject  :  RE:The Blunted Sides Phenomenon
Author  :  Marvin Amstey
Date  :  10-03-2000 on 08:45 p.m.
Neither are Kepse guls blunted; in fact they are elongated to the sides. Regards, Marvin

Subject  :  RE:The Blunted Sides Phenomenon
Author  :  Deschuyteneer Daniel
Date  :  10-03-2000 on 10:36 p.m.
Dear Wendell and all, I am sharing Yon thoughts. 1/ ”Originally, the medallion shapes were developed to fit into elongated rugs, so naturally they tended to be elongated in one direction and flattened in the other.” If it wouldn’t be so we wouldn’t have a balanced design and artistically it would be an error. The weavers didn’t only blunted the medallions on the shorter horizontal axis but apply the same principles for other larger devices drawn on the field. Look how they also blunted the horizontal arms of the corner brackets in this photo. It would not be difficult to add a lot of other examples. As the shape of the rug is asymmetric it’s, I think, normal that large motifs were asymmetrically drawn.
(Photo constructed with close up from Orient Stars – plate 130 & 132.) 2/ The second statement of Yon may be right : “Then people started making wide objects like bag faces, and the medallions adapted themselves by becoming wide too, but the tradition of flattening the sides was so strong that it remained even with the wide medallions”. There are nevertheless many examples, even in Turkmen utilitarians, where the scheme is inverted just because the horizontal axis is wider than the vertical axis. Look at this extraordinary Turkmen Eagle göl group torba sold at Nagel Stuttgart in may 2000 and advertised in Hali 111 page 110.
enter] 3/ I don’t think there are any technical reasons to explain this phenomena. Thanks, Daniel

Subject  :  RE:The Blunted Sides Phenomenon
Author  :  Marvin Amstey
Date  :  10-04-2000 on 09:04 a.m.
mamstey1@rochester.rr.com Dear Daniel, Yon's and your explanation still doesn't take into account the horizontally elongated Kepse gul in a vertically elongated rectangular carpet. I still like my idea of a stylization froma hexagon; why try to complicate this? Best regards, Marvin

Subject  :  RE:The Blunted Sides Phenomenon
Author  :  Michael Wendorf
Date  :  10-04-2000 on 10:13 a.m.
Dear Readers: The phenomena identified by Wendel is a perplexing one. The theory proposed by Yon and advanced by Daniel has some appeal, particularly in rugs utilizing a central medallion with or without spandrels or corner brackets. However, I believe the design format of a single central medallion with or without spandrels or corner brackets is, at least in the overall context of weaving, a relatively recent design construct that appears in various rugs only over the past several hundred years. What it seems to me that this theory does not adequately address is why this phenomena would either appear or be appropriate to weavings in which medallions or other units of design are repeated throughout the field or, to put it another way, as part of an overall field design? I am not persuaded that the guls that appear on the eagle gul torba depicted in Daniel's post demonstrate that where the format of the weaving is wider than it is long that the scheme is inverted. This weaving is more the exception than the rule. Certainly it would seem that the far greater number of torbas and other weavings that are wider than they are long continue to display guls or units of design, medallions or whatever name you wish to impose that are still blunted. In fact, collectors have always sought weavings with the drawing of the eagle guls in that torba, in part, because they are rare and conform to what we might argue is the oldest format of the gul. I do not find Marvin's simple theory of a stylized hexagon persuasive either, though I like the simplicity of the idea. Though the blunt sides might be consistent with a hexagon or even a stepped polygon it seems to me that if this theory were correct we would not observe the lack of four-part symmetry in the very clear pointing, elongation or rounding of the vertical axis. Put another way, if this were the answer, I would expect four-part symmetry to survive - in this case for the horizontal axis to be treated the same as the vertical - or to have the horizontal axis pointed or elongated for some independent structural reason. I also do not think the kepse gul advances the inquiry very far. Even if one were to assume it is something other than a stylized palmette, it seems to be only another exception to general rule and to directly undermine the theory that what Wendel has observed comes out of a stylized hexagon or other symmetrical geometric devise. This is because unlike the hexagon or polygon, there is no four-part symmetry. Thank you, Michael Wendorf

Subject  :  RE:The Blunted Sides Phenomenon
Author  :  Wendel+Swan
Date  :  10-04-2000 on 10:33 a.m.
wdswan@erols.com Dear all, In first image on the left provided by Daniel, one could explain that the weaver's error in starting the corner bracket on too large a scale resulted in blunting the interior ends. It doesn't appear, as I believe Daniel has suggested, that weaving errors can account for the phenomenon in other pieces that are quite precisely drawn and executed. In that same rug, we can see vertical extensions from the central medallion, similar in placement to the "anchors" we see, as an example the typical Bidjar medallion. It may be that the anchor medallions and these blunted sides result, in some way, from the fact that the vast majority of weavings are longer than they are wide. Thus, elongation of design may be a natural tendency and points on the vertical may result. This is somewhat of a parallel argument to Yon's about the progression from rugs to bags. That elongation argument may fall apart when we consider that blunted sides appear in medallions that are square or even horizontally elongated. Also like Daniel, I cannot imagine any structural imperatives for the phenomenon. Yet I have the feeling that it must relate in some way to the weaving process. The famous Jenkins Salor gul (with blunted sides) is otherwise almost identical in concept to what one sees in architecture, but the elements in architecture usually demonstrate four-part symmetry. I have wondered whether there may be some very ancient symbols that are elongated on the vertical axis, perhaps accounting in an indirect way for the blunted sides. We might find partial answers in early textiles, including those called Coptic, but even the solitary example I cited only shows that this phenomenon existed a long time ago and may extend back 2,000 years or more. It really provides no explanation for what seems to me to be a clearly intentional repetition of the phenomenon. As the Turkmen Kepse and Eagle guls demonstrate, not all medallion shapes have blunted sides, but we have not begun to discuss the many Caucasian medallions that do. Since I first noticed this phenomenon, I now tend to see it in many, many weavings. Let alone why it is so pervasive, I still don't know why it exists at all. Marvin's suggestion of a relationship to the hexagon has appeal in its simplicity, but the medallions shown are so complex that one cannot assume that they have "evolved" directly from a simple hexagon to account for the blunted sides phenomenon. In addition, many of these medallions bear a close relationship to octagons and eight-pointed stars, not hexagons, although hexagons can also be seen within some of the Turkmen guls. The essential shape of most of these medallions is not hexagonal although some, like that in the filikli, are. Best to all, Wendel

Subject  :  RE:The Blunted Sides Phenomenon
Author  :  Vincent+Keers
Date  :  10-04-2000 on 11:37 a.m.
Dear all, I can't see the "naturally" in elongated güls, in elongated rugs. It's more "anti-natural". It could well be it's more "natural" to shrink the length of the gül, so the rug looks wider and more balanced. The word "elongated" suggests the original was shorter. This contradicts the observation that older güls tended to be more squarish and recent güls became more "flattened". How to look at a rug-design: Pictures from rug-design are mostly made with a "western" technical disforming objective. So I begin with my bottom, sitting on the rug If we look at architecture, the shortening effect of height or distance, was known. I think it is on some of the heroïc Byzantine pillars where the design, circling around the pillar towards the top, is elongated bit by bit. This was done in order to keep the design visible in the top, from the ground looking up. The pillars of the Parthenon do not have the same distance. The three corner pillars are more close. The pillars at the front and back side are placed with greater distance then the ones at the left and right side. Heliodorus, Optica: 1 century AC "The purpose of the architect is to make his work look as properly proportioned as possible. His purpose must not be the factual, but the possible equality of sizes and concepts". The güls: From the perspective point of view the rug can be looked at from both sides in the length (unlike the heroïc pillars). Normal squares (under my bottom) would make the distant squares flatten, and become rectangles in the wide. The "diamond" shapes under my bottom, don't look at all like diamonds from a distance, and the design in the "diamonds" is lost from visability. "Elongated diamonds" (the left and right corners cut off) look as if they have more internal space from a distance, but in reality they have less internal space. I do think, architects had their say in the rug designs, and if not? The struggle for perspective was still on, in art, in the middle-ages. And rug design must have had it's own struggle, seen from the "sitting on the rug" perspective. I also noticed that a 70% of the large 16/17th century rugs tend to be asymmetrical in the length of the design. So it looks as if the medallion, or the central point, has been shifted down. This probably Kashan, (16th century, silk pile with metallic brocading) is an example. Is it because the production was bad? They couldn't get it right? If we look at the recent, more Western oriented production, they're all symmetric. Maybe the reason for shifting down the central point was because the rugs had to have a direction, a balanced appearance in the eyes of the ruler. So the perspective was achieved by elongating the second, most distant half of the design, or by extra design insertions, in order to keep the central design point, in the middle. The assertion that such design "failures" are the result of the knotting proces, are in my opinion too convenient because I think they could have made it "right" if they wanted to. Best regards, Vincent

Subject  :  RE:The Blunted Sides Phenomenon
Author  :  Wendel Swan
Date  :  10-04-2000 on 03:12 p.m.
My comments about "elongation" were not intended to argue that a symmetrical medallion (let us say an octagon) would be either lengthened or shortened because of the length of the warps in relationship to the width of the wefts. I was just saying that there is more room to create pattern along the warps than there is along the wefts. That MIGHT account for the blunting of the sides and the pointing of the tops and bottoms. This is, however, a tenuous thesis, one that I really don't believe in, but I have no other explanation. I didn't offer it as the only explanation, only one possible explanation. You have introduced the totally different concept of perspective. Single point perspective was not introduced into Western paintings until about the time of the Renaissance, although you are correct that the Greeks understood the effect of tapering columns. Inconsistent warp and/or weft tension would, I believe, be more likely to account for asymmetry than would the adoption of single point perspective in a carpet (the existence of which I don't believe has been demonstrated). Not all modern production is symmetrical. I have seen the relatively controlled production of Woven Legends result in carpets, having the same pattern, be of identical width (easy to achieve) while the length may vary by up to two feet. I've seen a lot of fine, expensive and otherwise well executed carpets and other weaving where they didn't get the length "right." I have no first hand experience, but I suspect that is a daunting task. Best, Wendel

Subject  :  RE:The Blunted Sides Phenomenon
Author  :  Vincent+Keers
Date  :  10-04-2000 on 08:34 p.m.
Dear Wendel, I assume your last posting was adressed to me. About the one perspective point. I do not have any hessitation in questioning my findings or me trying to explain it. But don't ask me to question my eyes, what I see...I see. I think it's very obvious, if I take into account my preconditioned western, modern perspective. I simply have doubts about the "elongating" story. If I want to put four gülls in the width of a rug instead of three, I make the gülls smaller at the start of designing the rug. I do not have to give them blunted sides. My story about the gülls did not adress a single point perspective, then the gülls should have been elongated bit by bit along the vertical axis of the rug. There is no perspective at all. The architects came in after I noticed the clear vissability of blunted gülls. I wanted to find an explanation. But the architects can be left out. I made it too complicated. Maybe the rug-designers worked with inventiveness. So no perspective at all, but simply the notion of not beïng able to see the designs clearly at the other side of the rug, as I did. As is demonstrated in the optical illusion of the rectangular becoming a square at distance. Beïng more visual programmed then geometrical, they maybe just acted according there findings. The shifting of the central point I noticed in 16/17th century rugs, (this became a subject looking at the architectual concept, by wich I tried to explain my eyes) could well be proven right or wrong, if the direction of the pile is taken into account. If the shifting of the central point is "against the grain"? it is done deliberate. If not, it's more probably the technical aspect of knotting. If the shifting results in adding extra design elements at one top of the rug, or elongating the design elements by adding extra knots, in the top halve, it's done deliberate. If it is done in the first halve, idem. If the knotcount at both sides of the rug is the same, but at one side the design is elongated (and no extra design elements are added) it's technical. Woven copies must have the same phenomenon as the originals. In brand new, well produced new elongated Tabriz, Naïn rugs, the centre is in the middle. I can't help, having the impression that 19th and 20th century 'Royal" rugs lack the centre shifting. Best regards, Vincent

Subject  :  RE:The Blunted Sides Phenomenon
Author  :  Vincent Keers
Date  :  10-05-2000 on 07:21 a.m.
P.S. And what about, Alcazar. Savonnerie, Aubusson production of "Tapisserie de Turquie et du Levant". Very large carpets, 17th century production including field grids, centre medallion etc. do not show the shifting of the centre point. Only the "Carpets from the Levant" beïng copies in Turkish style, show the shifting of the centre point. Chinees with allover grids, up to 9x8 meters, do not show the shifting aspect. I would expect an elongating effect of the grid as the carpet progresses in length. I had the oppertunity, restoring the carpets of the Spanish Embassady in The Hague. Sized 14x6 meters, spanish knots, cotton warps, woolen wefts. I did not see any elongating aspect. Some other aspect of the blunted sides: The Chinees had a non-perspective, even better a "from all sides" perspective because they scrolled down the drawings as we do on our monitors. In Chinees drawings you can see objects illustrated from different angles in one drawing. So the non-perspective in the rugs could as well be a "from all sides" perspective, but in a two dimensional contex. I think, I'm not creating my own religion, I'm only looking at the designs from a basic, two dimensional view. And I got the Chinees back in. Best regards, Vincent

Subject  :  RE:The Blunted Sides Phenomenon
Author  :  Wendel Swan
Date  :  10-05-2000 on 08:08 a.m.
Dear Vincent, I am not questioning your vision. I agree completely with you that we can see often that the distance from the center of the pattern (e.g., the middle of the medallion) to the border is not equidistant. However, we may not be able to agree on why that condition exists. I believe that the explanation can be found in the technical difficulties of tension of the warps and wefts on the loom rather than an intentional effort to create visual perspective. In July of 1999, there was a discussion on TurkoTek about a very similar issue. I noted that the Textile Museum has a very fine Senneh rug with about 1,200 knots per square inch with a Herati pattern. It is small, about 4 x 7 feet. In that rug, the Herati elements become increasingly longer from the beginning of the weaving to the end. The difference is not perceptible at first. Also, the number of knots per inch decreases slightly from the bottom to the top. The "elongation" process occurred in the repeating Herati pattern, where I would not think that a seated person's perspective would matter at all. Here was Marla's explanation for the appearance of the Senneh rug: WARP TAKE-UP (actually better than "loom take-up") refers to the small amount of warp that is "lost" (or "taken up" or shortened) when the warps are forced out of their straight paths. How much take-up occurs depends precisely on how the WEFTS are inserted, as I explained before. The amount of warp take-up has little to do with whether the loom is a simple village construction or an elaborate workshop affair. As for the Senneh piece you've mentioned, it sounds simply like inconsistent (sloppy?) weaving. Poor quality control! Looser warp tension can cause the weave to expand a little...but city workshop looms ought to have BETTER mechanisms (nice ratchets, etc.) for adjusting warp tension precisely and frequently. On a roller-beam type of loom, the tension is readjusted every time the finished portion of the rug is moved downward...between times as well, if necessary. On a continuous, circular warp, such as used in some workshops, if there is any substantial warp take-up the warp would get continually tighter...Thus there would have to be a provision for loosening the tension as the weaving proceeded...On the other hand, wool warp yarns stretch, so sometimes need to be tightened. Humidity changes as well as tension on the wool yarns themselves can make keeping a warp in excellent condition pretty tricky. The widespread switch to cotton warps in Iran was for good reason! To get back to the Senneh piece...The cause of the weave spreading--the pattern elongating--could thus be EITHER increasingly loose warp tension, or a decrease in the amount of weft ease allowed. It's impossible to say which without seeing the piece. People tend to assume that such problems have to do with how much beating is done, but this is not usually the crucial factor. Wendel

Subject  :  RE:The Blunted Sides Phenomenon
Author  :  Vincent+Keers
Date  :  10-05-2000 on 03:10 p.m.
Dear Wendel, Thank you for the quote. If warp tension is the main reason, as Marla made clear, 60/70% of the rugs and carpets in "The Books" we admire are "Sloppy jobs" and the "European 17th century carpets are "state of the art". If I look at the rugs in Schurmann Caucasian Rugs, plates 14,15,16,17,22,23,27,28,36,42,65, 66,85,102,105,132 all rugs are upside down. If this is correct, some of the animal- and human figures have been knotted upside down on the loom, wich is an aspect I've seen before. (So now I'm goïng to ask for a refund from the publisher.) Never the less, I'm not convinced warp tension etc. can be the main reason. If I'm rewarping and rewefting a hole, I know I can't do it to tight or else I'm having problems at the edge inserting the knots. (No space left) I would like to understand why giving the warps extra length (less tension) results in an elongating effect. It seams perfectly plausible, but if I hammer down the wefts properly and tight, as I did before, the extra warp length doesn't elongate the rug, it only gives some relief, and I can make a very long fringe. So Marla said: "Increasingly loose warp tension". This is a sloppy job indeed. So w'are left with the sloppy jobs of our ancestors, maybe because they used-up the symmetrical carpets they liked more. I could ad another 20 rugs from Ulrichs book that aren't illustrated uside down, but are sloppy jobs as well. Can't help beïng blockheaded about this. Coming up next: A south east Anatolian kilim "Aleppo" two-band, "sloppy job". Best regards, Vincent

Subject  :  RE:The Blunted Sides Phenomenon
Author  :  Marla Mallett
Date  :  10-05-2000 on 05:04 p.m.
marlam@mindspring.com With a repetitive pattern it is easy enough to determine whether changes in warp tension (or the often related differences in weft ease) have caused a woven motif to elongate or compress. One need only count the rows of knots or tapestry wefts in corresponding pattern units--one from an area where the design is compressed and another where the design is lengthened. If weft counts or vertical knot counts are the same in both places, then technical irregularities can be blamed for the design compression or expansion. The tighter the warp or the more weft ease that's allowed, the more firmly wefts tend to be beaten down. Variations in yarn spin can also sometimes be a factor. Differences in the number of knots used vertically to articulate motifs from one end of a rug to the other can also be explained by a weaver simply forgetting precisely how she did the thing toward the first end of the rug. On a circular warp, if the finished part of the rug has been pulled around to the back, it's troublesome to look, and on a roller-beam loom only a foolhardy weaver would unroll the thing to check what she did two weeks or two months before. So individuals tend to get pretty nonchalant about vertical symmetry. Horizontal symmetry is another matter, as the two parts are being executed at the same time, and it is easy to make them match, if that is desired. If two or more weavers are working together they can verbally compare notes. Of course with non-cartoon rugs it is possible to miscalculate the amount of warp remaining and to have to compress designs a bit toward the end...or with a little extra warp, to expand the thing a bit. I've also seen weavers compress their motifs near the end because it was nearing time to move from their winter houses up to the summer pastures, or because market day was near. On another personal note, Egyptian weavers whom I know well have hurried to finish the tapestries on their looms because they knew I was a likely buyer of their work, and was leaving soon. As a result, they compressed their images more than I would have liked. Marla

Subject  :  RE:The Blunted Sides Phenomenon
Author  :  Vincent Keers
Date  :  10-06-2000 on 06:18 a.m.
"The tighter the warp or more weft ease that's allowed, the more firmly wefts tend to be beaten down" I'm out in the dark now, for my English lets me down. Does TEND mean "looks as if", or is it "used to be", or is it "have to be". Because "TEND" gives me the impression the weaver can decide, upfront, what the warp tension and, because she has this freedom, is capable of determining at what point elongation starts. For I've rugs starting out elongated becoming more compressed, and the other way around. And in most of the rugs, elongation always starts immediately after the center point. First part of the medallion shorter then the second half. As if there has to be a general understanding about the point of loosening or tightening the warps. Here's a kilim: I've taken this kilim, because "elongation" in kilims is a less frequently seen subject in "The Books" and, because the "weight" of the article is of less importance. This kilim has a very strong elongation effect. I've pictured it from both sides, in order to show this. In the second picture the elongated "blunted top" medallion is most near. It doesn't show because of the perspective. Hope it is visible, but the fringe left is a closed warp. The right panel has open warps. But the elongation happens symmetrically, left and right in both panels. At the other side it's the same story. Some possibilities: 1. The panels have been woven on different looms, next to each other. This isn't possible because then the elongation at one loom is at the start, and at the other loom it's at the end. So it was not possible for the weavers to interact. 2. The panels have been woven on one loom, as is usually the case. This is the case. I put the two panels in the length and the weave shows: starting elongated and getting more compressed, the suddenly changing to elongated and getting more compressed again. Having the closed warps as a given element, the last conclusion would be the most reliable and the weavers were, and are, capable of deciding at which point "elongation" or "compression" was needed. If this is the case, the "sloppy" 16/17th century jobs in our Museums and in "The Books" aren't sloppy at all. They are as intended. I would like some feedback on this, for I think it's essential in our appreciation of the "oriental carpet art", in general. Best regards, Vincent Keers PS. I think this Salon has to be "elongated" because: Tesselation, elongation, compression, 2 dimensional perspective are essentials. As my English spelling is to, and I will never write any English litrature. Because the more easy I'm with English words, the more firmly English, as "communication" tend to be beaten down.

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