| Subject | : | The Holbein Connection |
| Author | : | Daniel Deschuyteneer |
| Date | : | 09-05-2000 on 08:41 a.m. |
| daniel.d@infonie.be
Dear all, It seems that very few examples of Caucasian rugs having similar
main border as my Kazak rug are available. Christoph posted the photo of a
Seichur rug with a similar "four arrows" border in another thread. Here is
one more example from the southwest Caucasian area. It's a close up from a
Zakatala rug illustrated in Mythos und Mystik - Adil Besim – Band
1- plate20. Adil Besim told me during the last London Hali Fair, that
field researches prove that this area was inhabited by Kurdish people.
|
| Subject | : | RE:The Holbein Connection |
| Author | : | Michael Wendorf |
| Date | : | 09-05-2000 on 09:43 a.m. |
| Dear Daniel: How do you fit the Talish - like rugs originating in Anatolia such as plate 25 in Brueggemann and Boehmer that Mike Tschebull made reference to last night in the border thread into your theory and what are the implications, if any, on the Talish rugs? A number of Holbein rugs show four part rosettes - some with signs of interlacing and others without. I think we need to assemble many more examples before drawing too many conclusions. Guido Imbimbo has identified several examples of each. Perhaps he can post them for comparison. Thanks, Michael |
| Subject | : | RE:The Holbein Connection |
| Author | : | Guido Imbimbo |
| Date | : | 09-05-2000 on 07:50 p.m. |
Dear Daniel at all, I attached some pictures of Holbein "guls" (the
source is the controversial but beautifully illustrated book by Volkmar
Gantzhorn,p.253). 
The second gul,in the first row, contains a typical "rosette" design. The
first gul, second row, contains clearly an "interlaced" device. Finally,
the borders of all these guls present in some way an "interlaced" motive
decoration. People in this Salon have remarked the presence of "interlace"
motive in Coptic design and asked about possible influence on subsequent
weaving production. I do not want to jump to any conclusion, but I simply
note that "rosette" and "interlace" devices appear together in Holbein
carpets. Con simpatia Guid |
| Subject | : | RE:The Holbein Connection |
| Author | : | Michael Wendorf |
| Date | : | 09-05-2000 on 10:02 p.m. |
| Dear All: The Holbein examples posted by Guido raise some interesting issues. In concept and design, these 4 Holbein motifs seem to all share more than mere passing similarities. Yet, as Marla observed, interlaces are pen and paper (or brush and papyrus) concepts while the two-part or "arrow" related rosette motifs represent a straightforward on-the-loom design development. Perhaps the explanation for seeing both types used interchangeably is that these 15th and 16th century Holbein rugs already reflect a mature or later stage of evolutionary sequence. To get deeper in the details we must, as Marla suggested, find more intermediate examples. Given the few existent carpet and textile fragments that remain from intermediate periods, it seems to me that Coptic textiles do offer one possibility for such examples insofar as we have seen that what would appear to be related examples of the interlaced type rosette existed at least as early as the 4th-5th century. Presumably the two-part or arrow type existed well before that give its likely origins in warp substitution. Thanks to Guido for the images. Michael |
| Subject | : | RE:The Holbein Connection |
| Author | : | Deschuyteneer+Daniel |
| Date | : | 09-06-2000 on 12:23 p.m. |
| Daniel Deschuyteneer Dear Michael, Unfortunately I don’t possess the book “Rugs from the peasants of Anatolia” and can’t therefore do any comments until one of us post a copy of plate 25 to which you and Mike are referring. I haven’t any theory, I just observe that the same Talish rosette as the rosette appearing in Holbein rugs, appear in the borders of 19th century Talish rugs and that they don’t in 18th century Talish rugs. Many thanks Guido for all your helpful photos Thanks, Daniel |
| Subject | : | RE:The Holbein Connection |
| Author | : | Christoph+Huber |
| Date | : | 09-06-2000 on 06:55 p.m. |
huber-ch@pilatusnet.ch
Dear all Interlaced, three-dimensional infinity versus two-dimensionality,
that seems to be one of the questions... Taking an eighth of the
interlaced, three-dimensional Coptic medallion we can mirror it until we
get the "Talish-rosette". (Where the three-dimensionality is theoretically
still present, but in the general impression lost.)  Because of its complexity the rapid loss
of the interlaced quality of an ornament is quite understandable. If we
look at the two Holbein guls in the second row of the picture Guido posted
above we can see this mechanism in an other example: While in the centre
of the left gul the red and white crosses are clearly interlaced, they
aren't anymore in the right one: Here, rather simply, the green one lies
on the white. When I in the other thread first mentioned the Holbein gul
in relation to the Coptic rosette, I meant the border. As Guido says in
his post above it has an interlaced quality although we can't really see
the three-dimensional structure (anymore).  But, despite its common use, I'm still unhappy about the term
"Coptic". Let me try to paraphrase some sentences from Musée d'art et
d'histoire Fribourg: Textilien aus Ägypten(Berne,1991): "Ninety
percent of all late-antique and early Christian textiles were found in
Egypt. [...] This rich material gives us a impressive picture of the
production of textiles from the 3. - 12. century. Until recent times
Egyptian textiles were generally called "Coptic textiles", a term which
refers to the products of the Egyptian Christians. The new interest of the
last ten years in late-antique art and the resulting knowledge let
recently to a more differentiated view on Egyptian textiles.[...]" Not
every textile preserved in Egypt originated there and not every ornament
documented on "Coptic textiles" has something to do with the early
Christians of Egypt or with Egypt generally. In the first chapter of this
catalogue it is stated that at the time when the Egyptians began to
decorate their textiles (3. century) they did so long after the bordering
regions have done the same. As luxurious items textiles were imported to
Egypt from regions as for example Syria and Anatolia. It is also mentioned
that there existed painted ornament models for weavers. (This seems to me
an indication that pen and paper concepts weren't totally unusual for all
weavers.) While looking through the chronologically arranged catalogue I
got the impression of rather different periods: One style in the first
period (3. - 5. century) is the one of Wendel's Coptic rosette. Here an
other example which looks (apart from the Gorgon head) very "Islamic" to
me. (Compare its interlaced frame to the 10. century Central Asian silver
plate with the Sassanian inspired Simurgh.)  Then, after the ones I would call "Classic Coptic" there follow
many fragments with Sassanian influence (6./7. century). Later, in Arabic
times, there is among others again a geometric, interlaced style which has
many similarities with the earlier one. (The dating of one piece reads:
"6. - 7. or 10. - 11. century") Here the "Islamic look" seems more
plausible and there seem to be many parallels to Oriental carpets.  If my impression of these different
styles is more or less correct a lot of questions arise:
|
| Subject | : | RE:The Holbein Connection |
| Author | : | Wendel+Swan |
| Date | : | 09-07-2000 on 02:22 p.m. |
Dear Christoph, Daniel and all, Christoph's illustrations and comments
on the use of the term "Coptic" are helpful in this discussion. I was
aware of the controversy, but I didn't (and still don't) know enough of
the history of the period to make appropriate distinctions. It may at
times be difficult to distinguish between versions of what have been
referred to as "two part" or "four part" rosettes on the one hand and
interlace on the other, despite certain obvious differences between them.
The design principles used to create and execute them must have been quite
similar, except that interlace implies an expression of infinity and would
seem to be a bit more difficult for the weaver (or any other artisan) to
achieve because it is not absolutely symmetrical. Using principles of
symmetry, a "medallion" can be created from a single motif by rotation of
that motif around a central point or by reflection (folding) of it. These
techniques can also be combined in various ways. In practical terms, from
a single well-learned element a weaver can create a more complex pattern
by manipulating the single element in various ways. Cartoons for medallion
rugs, for example, are seldom more than one-fourth the entire rug. Because
of the increased complexity of an interlace medallion, simple reflection
and rotation are not sufficient to construct one. Separately working out
the over and under results in what is for me one of the marvels of Islamic
art. As example of how symmetry can function, following is an image I drew
for the poster session in Milan as one step in the creation of the unique
"Lesghi star" from a single, simple motif that was translated, rotated and
reflected continuously.  The following five images illustrate the difficulties in making
rigid distinctions between the rosettes and the medallions. Between the
now familiar Luri, Talish and Kazak "rosettes," are the "Coptic" interlace
(on which I have placed some colored squares) and yet another variation of
the rosette illustrated by Kirchheim in Orient Stars and attributed by him
possibly to the 16th Century. During the course of this salon I have come
to see the Talish and Luri examples (along with the Belouch) as parallel
versions of the "two part" or bilaterally symmetrical "rosette" in
Daniel's rugs. Each seems to have its own lengthy but separate history.
 The colored
diamonds and squares in the Coptic interlace are shown where there is
negative space. These correspond exactly to the diamonds and squares of
the Talish, Luri and Belouch rosettes. This seems to me to be at least
some indication that there was an interlace somewhere in the "bloodline"
of those three. Proof? Of course not. A side observation. Especially in
the Luri rosette, note that one can additionally read the elements on the
diagonal axes, so that it could be said to be a four-part composition of
the so-called "ram's horns" devices that Christoph has illustrated. This
may not, long ago, have been unintentional. Duality is a common
characteristic of Islamic design and, as I think we can speculate, in the
various design traditions from which it may have emerged.  Returning to the comparison
below that I presented in my first post, we can see that the use of color
creates the illusion of interlace in the five examples on the right side.
Note, for example, in the border motifs of Daniel's Kazak that the red and
blue seem to cross in the center to form an "S" shape. This could be seen
as a characteristic of interlace, even though a schematic of the element
would not show interlace. (And I am clearly not stating that the two- or
four-part medallion is interlace.) While interlace does mean "over and
under," there is another important aspect:: the paths forming the
interlace cross the quadrants or halves. The lines of the Luri and Belouch
(and Talish) rosettes could easily be seen as extending through the
center, much as an interlace would, yet the absence of color creates an
entirely different effect. In these examples some readers may find factors
to declare either "four part" medallion or "two part" medallion or
"interlace" but others, like me, may find great ambiguity. This drawing
illustrates again the effect of color. Element A could be a two part
device created by reflection (folding) on either the vertical or the
horizontal axis, simply because there is no color. Or it could be a
four-part device through a combination of reflection and a second
reflection.  But you
can't create Element B by reflecting on either the horizontal or the
vertical axes because of the introduction of color. (It is possible, of
course, to create B by rotating one half of it 180 degrees.) You can
achieve Element C by simply reflecting B. In the "Coptic" textiles we see
primarily black and white. The introduction and use of color changes our
perspective and the issues. One of the features I like most about the
borders in Daniel's rugs is the complexity of the color and the dynamic
its use creates. The NWP or Caucasian interpretation is most distinctive
for that reason, even though it may be similar to and share some form of
design evolution with the interlace models. When this salon ends, I hope
that we can collectively say that rather than finding all the answers, we
have asked the right questions. I know that some of the discussion caused
me to reassess my own thoughts on subjects that I had been thinking about
for quite a while. We can all learn a lot more from one another than we
can by ourselves. Best, Wendel |
| Subject | : | RE:The Holbein Connection |
| Author | : | Deschuyteneer Daniel |
| Date | : | 09-07-2000 on 05:55 p.m. |
| Daniel Deschuyteneer Dear all, Marla Mallett said in an earlier
posting: “The three-dimensional continuously interlacing scrollwork seen
throughout Byzantine, Coptic and early Islamic art has little in common
with four-part multi-colored rosettes made with triangles and angular
hooked attachments--including those with eventually rounded corners
Elaborate interlaces are pen and paper (or brush and papyrus) concepts,
while the knotted pile motifs in the arrow borders represent a
straightforward on-the-loom design development. “ I can clearly see, these
four part multi-colored rosettes made with TRIANGLES oriented to the
center having angular hooked attachments and HORIZONTAL/VERTICAL
differentiation in the five last “rosette” Wendel has illustrated (on the
right). Notice also that the weaver always used only one color to drawn
them except in the last Anatolian example.
|
| Subject | : | RE:The Holbein Connection |
| Author | : | Deschuyteneer Daniel |
| Date | : | 09-07-2000 on 05:59 p.m. |
| Dear all, Marla Mallett said in an earlier posting: “The
three-dimensional continuously interlacing scrollwork seen throughout
Byzantine, Coptic and early Islamic art has little in common with
four-part multi-colored rosettes made with triangles and angular hooked
attachments--including those with eventually rounded corners Elaborate
interlaces are pen and paper (or brush and papyrus) concepts, while the
knotted pile motifs in the arrow borders represent a straightforward
on-the-loom design development. “ I can clearly see, these four part
multi-colored rosettes made with TRIANGLES oriented to the center having
angular hooked attachments and HORIZONTAL/VERTICAL differentiation in the
five last “rosette” Wendel has illustrated (on the right). Notice also
that the weaver always used only one color to drawn them except in the
last Anatolian example.
|