TurkoTek Discussion Boards

Subject  :  The two balishts
Author  :  Steve Price
Date  :  06-20-2000 on 07:02 p.m.
sprice@hsc.vcu.edu Dear People, There was a short thread with this title, and its text vanished from our server somehow. I'll try to start it again. Patrick suggests that the first of his balishts is a generation younger than the second. I suspect the age difference to be much greater. The second one is spacious and classical in its rendering of the motifs. The first is more crowded, and the leaf motifs have morphed beyond recognition as leaves. Steve Price

Subject  :  RE:The two balishts
Author  :  Henry Sadovsky
Date  :  06-21-2000 on 10:37 p.m.
The dating of Baluch material seems to me to involve a fair amount of intuition. Nevertheless, it has been my experience that individuals interested in this type of thing can often reach consensus as to the relative dating of material. Reassuring as this might be, it is, of course, no guarantee of correctness. Still, one must start somewhere. Based soley on the images and descriptions of the two balishts which Patrick has provided, I offer the following opinions. Balisht #1 is not old. This has also been the opinion of prior posters who have pondered this. What is driving this apparent consensus? Non-traditional and crowded design have been raised as considerations. As for me, the apparent absence of patina is decisive. Now, how old is not old? As with humans, I would say that less than 60 years is not old. Seventy five is getting there. Is this balisht thirty? Fifty? Maybe to both. In my way of looking at things, it does not matter. There is much to like about it surely, but I do not know anyone with experience who would pay a premium for it based on the belief that it is venerable in age. Pay for age? Yes, of course. I have never heard anyone dispute that age costs. What seems to be at times questioned is why this is so. Balisht #2 is older. Again, there seems to be some consensus on this. Is it old? I think it likely is. Is it antique? I believe that forming an opinion on this question would require direct examination. In other words, it may be. Of note, if baluch #1 could be as young as thirty years: assuming a generational span of sixteen years implies that a weaving of four generations earlier might be not quite antique.

Subject  :  RE:The two balishts
Author  :  Henry Sadovsky
Date  :  06-22-2000 on 03:05 a.m.
I mentioned above that “patina” is, for me, an important indicator as to the relative dating of a group of rugs. I would add that this applies only when comparing simliar type rugs. Others have also stated this in prior salons and elsewhere. This, I believe, requires elaboration. Perhaps “aura”, rather than "patina", will better convey the quality that I feel is inherent to many weavings of venerable age. Rarely, if ever, does it emanate from later pieces. Encompassed in this “aura” is a “glow” and a “blood warm vitality”. The more romantically inclined sometimes describe feeling the presence of the weaver. I’m rather concrete myself and would be satisfied with substituting “spirit” for “presence”. The “aura” may be accompanied by a hint, a fragrance, a memory, of music. One has an emotional response to this. It may be subtle and exquisite, or quite violent. Hell, some people “fall in love” with it. I think that the issue of first importance on interacting with a rug is the perception, or lack thereof, of the “aura”. If it is there, are you home free? Of course not. One can succumb to an infatuation, rather than the real thing. Alternatively, one may be unreceptive to the “aura” due to any number of factors. It is, to get back to the question of relative dating, my feeling that only the oldest weavings embody an “aura” that is not only palpable, but is enduring. If the above is true; why might it be so? There are three important possibilities. 1) From about 1800 (you may substitute an earlier date) to 1980 there has been a widespread decline in the “quality “ of rug weaving over the entire area where “oriental rugs” have been an integral part of the culture and the economy. This deterioration has corrupted every aspect of rug production including: wool selection and preparation, dye preparation, wool dying, and sensitivity and fidelity to traditional cultural aesthetics. 2) Time beautifies rugs. Physical changes in the wool-dye complex are salutary. The fabric becomes more pleasing to the touch. The colors become fuller, mellower, and more harmonious. This is not just a consequence of exposure to abrasion and light (i.e. wear), but also to exposure to oxygen (i.e. lengthy existence). 3) Psychology/marketing/peer pressure/fashion. The result being that rugs which are perceived to be older are also perceived to be more beautiful and valuable. The element of relative scarcity could be a dominant factor in this. In any event, balisht #1 doesn’t have it (“aura”) as best as I can judge from the image on my computer screen. #2 ...? Patrick?

Subject  :  RE:The two balishts
Author  :  R. John Howe
Date  :  06-22-2000 on 06:15 a.m.
Dear folks - The reasons for believing that Balouch rug 2 is older and perhaps aesthetically superior to Balouch rug 1 in this salon are rather convincing. But let me call attention to one factor that might point slightly in the other direction: range of color. Pat says piece 1 has 13 colors. This is a remarkably high color range (the Salors, about whom we raphsodise, rarely exceeded 15). And we often do say that one indicator of a likely younger age is the narrowing of the range of colors used. On this dimension, the evidence provided in rug 1 does not suggest a later date. One further thought, it seems to me that synthetic dyes are for some reason encountered somewhatless frequently in Balouch pieces than they are in say Turkmen weavings. But most of the Balouch sat pretty close to the railroad and to the Silk Road and to the Turkmen and many must have had early access to synthetics. I have not heard anyone say that they see anything in the dyes in rug 1 on their screens (as unreliable as that admittedly is) to make them suspect that it contains any synthetics. If a rug contains this kind of color range in all natural dyes, this would seem to be another reason for perhaps reconsidering any suspicion that it could be a recent as say 50 years old. Regards, R. John Howe

Subject  :  RE:The two balishts: Date attributions
Author  :  Steve Price
Date  :  06-22-2000 on 08:37 a.m.
sprice@hsc.vcu.edu Dear John, As inexact as we all know date attributions to be, Belouch stuff has a level of uncertainty that puts it in a class by itself. Those folks appear to have used handspun wool and natural dyes right up to World War II. This makes it pretty hard to discriminate a mid-20th century from a late 19th century piece, something that most of us think of as a simple thing to do with almost any other central or western Asian textile. So why do so many ruggies (including me) often attribute Belouch pieces to the 19th century? Funny you should ask. I think this is one of the many places where we run smack into a conflict between accurate language and language that communicates information. Huh? It would probably be accurate, for example, to call Patrick's first and second Balisht post-war and pre-war (meaning World War II), respectively. If I were to describe them in those terms to a ruggie who hadn't seen them, he would probably get an inaccurate picture of what they are; this is because the convention is to call older looking Belouch "19th century", younger looking Belouch with no obvious synthetic dyes "early 20th century", and to reserve the descriptor, "recent", to pieces with obvious synthetics in the palette. Thus, the accurate language communicates information that is incorrect. It's important to remember what we're doing when we use inaccurate language that communicates certain information (the appearance of the rugs) in a way that the guy on the receiving end understands it. I think most of us do remember that most of the time. Steve Price

Subject  :  RE:The two balishts
Author  :  Tom+Cole
Date  :  06-22-2000 on 10:18 a.m.
From photos I cannot speculate so well on age, but when I first saw the images downloading, I liked them both. I did like the #2 more when it came through, but I liked #1 as it was downloading also. Liked the colors and had no thoughts of design degeneration etc., just color. Two nice balisht. My initial thoughts were the first is from Afghanistan and the second from Khorassan, but on second thought, I cannot be sure without seeing them in person. But two nice pieces, which if they belong to Mr. Weiler, I offer my congratulations.

Subject  :  RE:The two balishts
Author  :  Marvin Amstey
Date  :  06-22-2000 on 10:19 a.m.
mamstey1@rochester.rr.com Dear Steve, et al, If you were to describe these or anything else to someone <50 years old as pre- or postwar, he/she probably would be lost. WWII is being forgotten quickly, and a young ruggie may think you're talking about Vietnam or even the Gulf war. Language - it does change. Best regards, Marvin

Subject  :  RE:The two balishts
Author  :  Steve Price
Date  :  06-22-2000 on 10:33 a.m.
sprice@hsc.vcu.edu Dear Marvin, I know. That's why I placed "World War II" in parentheses after the pre-war, post-war words. Steve Price

Subject  :  RE:The two balishts
Author  :  Patrick+Weiler
Date  :  06-22-2000 on 07:59 p.m.
jpweil00@gte.net Henry, The first balisht, (could this word be related to our English word "Bolster"?) seems to be working on an "aura" of its' own. The outer border has been worn down to the knots on both sides and the wool has that shininess acquired with age and use. The red/brown undulating leaf inner border has the saturated depth of satisfying age. The brown/black has oxidized and provides a relief against the deep red.The field, with the camel colored wool, looks a bit flat. That may be because it is camel wool, with less luster, and not sheep wool. The row of pink knots may be a synthetic color. The blues have not receded, the browns and black have, and the red is slightly recessed. I assume that it is older than I am and that it has outlived its' weaver. Tomorrow I shall bring it to an established, experienced dealer, Dr. Phil Abaloney, BS, Oriental Rug and Orthodontia appraiser. The results will be reported here forthwith.

Subject  :  RE:The two balishts
Author  :  Patrick+Weiler
Date  :  06-23-2000 on 10:57 p.m.
jpweil00@gte.net The results are in: Balisht #1 has been positively, unreservedly, convincingly dated to somewhere between 1880 and 1920. That is quite a range. This is the opinion of an antique rug dealer of 25 years experience. I know it is not as romantic as a carbon dating of 13% 1659-1712 or 97% 1880-1920, but is most likely accurate. Regarding the likelihood of the pink knots in the middle branch being synthetic, the conclusion is: problably, but one of these days we won't quibble about it and consider the weaving on its inherent merits. We can discuss the relative probability of this weaving being closer to 1880 versus 1920, but "first quarter 20th century" is a pretty good guess. The balisht #2 is suggested as being "3rd quarter 19th century". Patrick Weiler

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