Regards, R. John
Howe| Subject | : | Some Belouch balishts |
| Author | : | Henry Sadovsky |
| Date | : | 06-23-2000 on 12:16 a.m. |
| The following images come from the Cloudband site. These two balisht
were on display at ACOR 5. I am again struck by the degree of symmetry in
the small minor design elements. The lower image (lets call it #4, and the
upper one #3), as lovely as it is, does not convey the extraordinary color
and "aura" of the piece.
<img src="http://www.turkotek.com/salon_00045/balisht3.jpg" border="0"> <img src="http://www.turkotek.com/salon_00045/balisht4.jpg" border="0"> |
| Subject | : | RE:Two more balisht |
| Author | : | R. John Howe |
| Date | : | 06-23-2000 on 06:10 a.m. |
| Hi Henry - These camel ground tree of life designs are sometimes denigrated by more experienced collectors in part because they are encountered rather frequently among Balouch weavings. I have always rather enjoyed them, primarily, I think, because they are instances of something I find that I respond to generally in rug designs. I like simple designs that upon further examination are actually quite complex. The use of color in the leaves in these tree of life designs has a nice complexity that I find appealing. I own an Ersari khojin that has a similar complicating use of color in what is intially seen as a rather straightforward lattice design. Regards, R. John Howe |
| Subject | : | RE:Two more balisht |
| Author | : | John Howe |
| Date | : | 06-23-2000 on 08:26 a.m. |
| rjhowe@erols.com
Dear folks - Above I mentioned an Ersari khorjin that I own that has a
simple design with nice second look complexity especially in the use of
color that resembles that in the leaves of these Balaouch pieces. Here are
two direct scans of this design. Regards, R. John
Howe |
| Subject | : | RE:Two more balisht |
| Author | : | Steve Price |
| Date | : | 06-23-2000 on 08:46 a.m. |
| sprice@hsc.vcu.edu Dear People, The two balishts that Henry introduced here are relevant to the ongoing discussion. Since we want to keep Turkotek out of commercial activity, I'll ask that everyone refrain from making comments about them that might influence their sale, either positively or negatively. Thanks, Steve Price |
| Subject | : | RE:Two more balisht |
| Author | : | Henry+Sadovsky |
| Date | : | 06-23-2000 on 10:38 a.m. |
| Steve, Neither of these pieces is on the market. Looking at the images this morning, I am now struck by how similiar the distribution of minor design elements is in balisht 3 and 4. Sam Coad has shown me a set of "star in octagon" type Baluch bagfaces (no longer on the market) in which there was remarkable design constancy between pieces, including the placement of the very smallest elements. What was most intriguing was that within this group, there was a range of sophistication with regard to weave, quality of wool and color. One had the strong feeling that the weavings were from different generations. Sam felt that the weavings were the products, over a century or more, of a small group, such as a family or clan. |
| Subject | : | RE:Two more balisht |
| Author | : | Michael Wendorf |
| Date | : | 06-23-2000 on 10:39 a.m. |
| Dear Steve: I do not believe that either Balischt 3 or 4 is "for sale." Balischt 3 is from the Mazzie collection and was exhibited at ACOR. Balischt #4 was exhibited at Tony Kitz's gallery exhibition during ACOR and is likewise in collection. I, like Henry, find #4 to be an especially beautiful example inviting and deserving comment on this Board. Thank you, Michael |
| Subject | : | RE:Two more balisht |
| Author | : | Steve Price |
| Date | : | 06-23-2000 on 11:07 a.m. |
| sprice@hsc.vcu.edu Dear Michael and Henry, I hadn't intended to inhibit discussion, and began by noting that these two balishts are germane. Since most images on Cloudband are of things in dealer inventories, I just wanted to make sure we didn't promote (or hurt!) anyone's marketing of the pieces. Since these two aren't for sale, my posting was unnecessary, and I apologize for any anxieties it may have provoked. Steve Price |
| Subject | : | RE:Two more balisht |
| Author | : | Henry+Sadovsky |
| Date | : | 06-23-2000 on 11:51 a.m. |
| John, Yes, the "tree of life" is frequently encountered on camel ground Baluch weavings. The word "icon" is much used these days, but I can't help but to raise it to consciousness here. Perhaps this form is of similiar significance to certain Baluch people as the Tekke Gol is to a subset of Turkmen. This brings up a point that Jim Allen, and others, talk about. That is, the concept of a "classic" period with regard to the weaving of certain peoples. The ubiquity of a design may be reflective of how deeply, and for how long, it has been a cultural symbol. |
| Subject | : | RE:Two more balisht |
| Author | : | Patrick+Weiler |
| Date | : | 06-23-2000 on 02:00 p.m. |
jpweil00@gte.net
Henry, I am glad you posted these two photos. I saw the first one at ACOR5
and was struck by the resemblance with my #2. I commented that the number
of branches was more. This tended to compress the design and flatten out
the top of the tree. I think the colors of balisht #2 are more comparable
to your #4. You are right, the pictures cannot convey the depth of the
colors. The two photos below show the bottom corners of balisht #2. It is
not possible to see the depth of relief between the full-pile camel color
field and the graduated recession of the blue, then red, then dark brown.
From the perspective of a little moth larva, it would look like jupming
off a cliff from the camel to the dark brown. It is particularly abrupt in
the lower left branch, where the dark brown is almost flush with the warp
and weft.   Patrick
Weiler |
| Subject | : | RE:Two more balisht |
| Author | : | Michael Wendorf |
| Date | : | 06-23-2000 on 03:45 p.m. |
| Dear All: Henry has made a number of perceptive observations in this thread. One of these is the observation of design consistency between pieces with a range of sophistication with regard to weave, quality of color and wool. I have always seen individual weavings differently or in a new light when comparing them within a group or set of similar weavings. We now have four balischt with a version of the tree of life up for comparison. How about it Baluchi collectors, can we post some more for "crepuscule time"? (sorry Patrick, it just doesn't quite roll off the tongue). Thank you. Michael |
| Subject | : | RE: |
| Author | : | Steve Price |
| Date | : | 06-23-2000 on 04:19 p.m. |
sprice@hsc.vcu.edu
Dear People, Just to facilitate comparisons, here are the four balishts
(in this order; Patrick's first and second; Henry's third and fourth):
    Steve Price |
| Subject | : | RE: |
| Author | : | Patrick+Weiler |
| Date | : | 06-24-2000 on 12:28 p.m. |
| jpweil00@gte.net Steve, Great idea to show all four together. Obviously the latter three are older. It is interesting to see where the design went in its' evolution. In addition to the similar reciprocal border, I noticed that the three older weavings have, at the base of the tree, five "roots" pointing down. The newer weaving has only three. Was there some meaning to this number of "roots" at one time? Granted, the consistency of design within a group would argue for numerous similarities, but would something as consistent as this indicate an origin in another medium, such as architecture or tile work? I noted in an earlier thread the remote similarity with Mughal realistic floral weaving. Akbar, The Mughal Emperor, was from Afghanistan. The camel colored ground is reminiscent of desert sand. Any idea what kind of tree this might have been? Patrick Weiler |
| Subject | : | RE: |
| Author | : | Guido+Imbimbo |
| Date | : | 06-24-2000 on 05:49 p.m. |
miaom@pacific.net.sg
I am not a Turkomaniac or an Belouch weavings expert, but the post of John
Howe on his Ersari khorjin prompted me to send two images of a so-called
Ersari Beshir(?) prayer rug that belongs to me. This prayer rug has the
border (see direct scan in picture 2) with the same flowers device that
appears in the Howe's piece. Note that one of the white flowers (parallel
to the prayer horn devise) is filled with red silk.   The Howe's piece flower
device appears in other Ersari-Beshir weavings: -Hali Issue 86, p. 139
-Hali Issue 73, p. 122 (see also Rippon Boswell, 20 May 2000, Lot 78)
-Rippon Boswell, 12 Nov 1994, Lot 29 Other related examples of my
Ersari-Beshir prayer with the same flower-tendril field: -Oriental Rugs
from Pacific Collections, pag. 242 (see also Hali 27, p. 14) -Herrmann,
Asiatische Teppiche, Band 3, 1991 plate 59 (see also Hali, Vol 3, No. 2,
p. 4) And for a related fragment (that does not seem to be a prayer rug)
with the same flower device: -Hans Elmby, Antique Turkmen Carpets,
Exhibition 3-18 March 1990, Kobenhavn, plate 45 attributed to Kirghiz (?)
Best Regards, Guido |
| Subject | : | RE: |
| Author | : | Patrick Weiler |
| Date | : | 06-24-2000 on 09:48 p.m. |
| jpweil00@gte.net Guido, It is interesting that the quartered diamond border you show, related to the field design John shows, is similar in form to the serrated-diamond/herati/sharks jaw design in the two Kamseh bag faces shown later in the Salon. The ubiquity of this design is probably related to structural limitations of the weaving medium, and especially to slit-weave tapestry style of weaving. It is possible that this feature has been derived from the flat weave medium and become integrated into pile weaving over the generations. The Ersari and the Baluch types of weaves were made in the same part of the world, so it is not surprising that an artistic device such as this would permeate the milieu. Patrick Weiler |
| Subject | : | Another Belouch Balisht |
| Author | : | John Howe |
| Date | : | 06-25-2000 on 08:29 a.m. |
rjhowe@erols.com
Although I don’t collect Balouch pieces or pretend to know anything in
particular about this group (excepting perhaps that experienced Balouch
collectors seem nowadays more and more cautious about asserting what they
believe they know about these weavings), I do own a Balouch Balisht with a
tree of life field design. I cannot, until later today, offer you a photo
of the overall piece but here are three direct scans of portions of it.
 There are eight “leaves” on each
side in this version of this design and the top- most “leaf” is much
reduced perhaps to the point of having lost it “leafness.” There are two
reds, camel, white, brown, and a dark blue. The wool, although low, has
that glossiness that one encounters frequently in Balouch pieces. Although
I’ve not counted, this piece is quite fine and the ivory wool warps are
depressed so that perhaps two thirds of alternate knot nodes are visible.
The drawing takes advantage of the fine-ness of the weave. Although there
are a number of small filler devices in the camel field, they are,
excepting a few of the smallest instances, all outlined in a different
color. The drawing of the leaves includes the usual color differences but
seems somehow less satisfyingly complex in this version. This despite the
fact that the weaver has taken advantage sometimes of the opportunities
the fine-ness of the weave provides at what Alexander calls the “level of
the knot.” There are, for example, tiny blue “dots” in the stem of each
leaf that continue into the leaf area itself. The original sides and ends
of this piece are gone.  There are
three borders of approximately equal width. The main border is so
unobtrusive and has less graphic impact than do the two “minor” borders.
These latter have a graphically stronger latch hook design that has at the
base of each hook a small cruciform device in a contracting color. Despite
its vague-ness, the “main” border has on closer examination a nice
complexity that shows care by this weaver. This border design is a
miniaturized version of the tree of life design with four leaves on each
side.  It is placed on a brown
ground but the weaver has achieved a subtle complexity by alternating the
two colors in which these little trees are drawn. Sometimes they are in
the brighter red and dark blue and sometimes they are in a browner red
with this same blue. This border, Pat is not one that you would ever
notice in twilight. It takes a pretty bright light and some concentrated
examination to reveal itself. Despite this rather nice complexity this
border is too vaguely drawn to perform any real framing function for the
field. The graphic result it that this piece sort of “peters” out at it
sides and ends. I cannot really evaluate the quality of this piece (beyond
what I have offered above) but the fact that I rather quickly gave it to
one of my daughters after having bought it in an Ann Arbor, Michigan
antique show a year of two ago, suggests to me that I see it as one of the
more ordinary versions of this design. Regards, R. John
Howe |
| Subject | : | RE:Two more balisht |
| Author | : | John Howe |
| Date | : | 06-25-2000 on 09:46 p.m. |
rjhowe@erols.com
Dear Folks – Here is the promised more comprehensive image of my balisht.
 In this image I think you can see
the subtle detail in the border treatments. I’ve also been wondering about
my previous comment that the “main” border in this piece is vague in a
troublesome way that interferes with its ability to “frame” the field.
I’ve noticed now, looking at them again, that the designs in the balishts
in this thread all have rather vague aspects to their border systems,
although some appear to be composed of two borders rather than three. I
wonder now if I am reading these border systems in the way that the
weavers intended. It may be with these camel ground designs that the
weavers sometimes meant for all the borders outside the field to be read
as a unit. If I take this perspective with my piece, it seems to be that
this three part system functions rather well as a frame for the field and
that the latch hooks’ graphic power may license some subtlety in the
center band. The only thing that I can see that might argue against this
single-unit reading of the border in my piece is the weaver has used the
darker red for the inside latch hook border and the brighter red for the
outside one. If the reds in these two borders were the same, one might be
in a stronger position to argue the single-unit thesis. Still, this
reading may not be far fetched. Regards, R. John Howe |
| Subject | : | RE:Two more balisht |
| Author | : | John Howe |
| Date | : | 06-25-2000 on 09:54 p.m. |
Dear Folks – This is to draw attention to the nature of some of the
complicating aspects of the “diamond” design in the field of my
Ersari/Beshiri khorjin and in the border of Guido Imbimbo’s Beshiri
“prayer rug. Pat has also referenced in his post in this thread some other
similar designs in his initial salon statement. Notice that the occasions
for complexity chosen by the weaver of the Imbimbo piece are different
from those chosen by the weaver of mine. In the Imbimbo piece there are
little internal devices within each of the quarters of the diamond that
are not present in mine. 
Instead the weaver of my piece chose in one instance to complicate the
vertical and horizontal divisions of the diamonds with barber pole
stripes, that are plain lines in the Imbimbo piece. Third, the weaver of
my piece introduced a complexity into the drawing of the serrations in the
outside edges of the diamonds by adding at each serration a small
contrasting square of color (a form of outlining) which is itself in each
case further outlined. These three moves show that there are many
variations available even to weavers working with quite simple designs.
 This last image of this
khorjin is to provide you with a notion of the overall composition of this
piece and also to let you see that it is seriously damaged. Although I
think it worthy of repair, the quotes I have had to date are in the area
of $1500 and I have not be moved to invest that much so far. Instead I am
enjoying it in its as “found” condition. (No I didn’t put in the white
cotton warps) Regards, R. John Howe |
| Subject | : | RE: |
| Author | : | Patrick Weiler |
| Date | : | 06-26-2000 on 01:38 a.m. |
| jpweil00@gte.net John, You mention the barely-readable middle border in your balisht. The outer border in balisht #1 is also barely readable, especially in low "twilight" conditions. With the combination of a part of the design only discernable in very high light conditions, part readable in neutral conditions and the main field readable even in low light, could these weavings have been designed to be appreciated in a variety of conditions that would change throughout the day and seasons? I have speculated before, when the topic of Ak Juvals was being discussed, that the very light/white colors in the design could even be detected in extremely low light, such as that available inside a tent at early dawn. This treatment does seem to be prevalent among tribal pieces and absent in other more "sophisticated" weavings; probably because it was no longer necessary. In a culture without electric lights, it would seem helpful to be able to recognize specific containers in low light conditions. Speculatively, Patrick Weiler |
| Subject | : | RE: High Light, Low Light |
| Author | : | R. John Howe |
| Date | : | 06-26-2000 on 06:30 a.m. |
| Pat - I think is was agreed in some previous discussions that subtle uses of color, such as those that occur in many Balouch weavings, at a minimum signal that these weavings were produced under "high light" conditions, else the weaver would not have been able to tell what she was doing. Your further speculations are plausible. I look around the tent for the bag with a white outline of a particular kind on its face. That one has my best "dress" in it. Regards, R. John Howe |
| Subject | : | RE:Two more balisht |
| Author | : | Kenneth Thompson |
| Date | : | 06-26-2000 on 07:57 a.m. |
wkthompson@aol.com
Here are two balishts with very different treatments of the camel-ground,
tree of life format. 
 One is a little
gem, the other is a little odd. The first must have been woven as a
demonstration of virtuosity for some occasion, since it is finely knotted
(H 12, V 14 kpsi 168), has very silky wool, and a sparkling color palette.
The camel field, with three trees of life, is sprinkled with tiny one-knot
flower-dots, along with good luck symbols. I have added a direct scan for
the detail. The images unfortunately do not do it justice because of the
reflective quality of the wool.  The second is a slightly longer-format (17" x 42"), heavier
balisht with an odd variation in the tree of life design. The weaver was
obviously a bit ambivalent what she had in mind, since she changed the
width of the camel field about a quarter of the way into the project. What
might have been the tree of life has been deconstructed into a repeating
sequence of turkic guls and a geometric device that looks like an ashik
motif sprouting a bird-topped totem pole. It isn't one that I can give a
name to, but it may be familiar to those who know more about Baluchi
weavings than I do. The second piece has the same finish as Patrick
posted: bands of weft-substitution separated by lines of countered
twining. Its back has bands of maroon and brown plainweave divided by
bands of S-motifs, ashiks and Z-motifs in weft substitution. (FYI Both
pieces have a respectable provenance in that they belonged to a former
Keeper of Textiles at the Victoria and Albert. ) I would be interested in
the reaction of you more knowledgeable Turkotekers. Regards,
Kenneth |
| Subject | : | RE:Low light emergence of colors |
| Author | : | +Kenneth Thompson+ |
| Date | : | 06-26-2000 on 01:02 p.m. |
| wkthompson@aol.com Patrick and John have noted how certain colors emerge in Baluchi and Turkmen pieces as the light grows stronger or weaker. I have observed the same phenomenon myself over the years, especially with Baluchi weavings. In fact, when I saw the crepuscular theme of the salon, I though it might focus on that aspect. I first noticed this several years ago with a worn baluchi carpet we had in front of a fireplace. When the room grew dark and the fire was the only source of light, the reds in the baluchi carpet glowed like optical fibers. The whites, of course, stood out, but it was the reds that impressed me. The same happened at sunset with a red-ground Zara Kurd prayer rug we had on the wall. The glowing red drowned out the less desirable pink patches that Kurds in Turkey were partial to. Now that I have small rug wall with rheostat-controlled spotlights, I can produce roughly the same effect by dimming the light. I have a baluchi bagface with the classic array of baluchi birds outlined in red on a very dark blue field. Under normal light, the birds are visible but not striking. But under dim light, they almost glow. If you play with the light, you can create a very dramatic effect. All that is missing in the appropriate musical accompaniment as the stage lights come up. Was this effect intentional or accidental? My guess is that the weavers learned from serendipity and found that certain color combinations from available dyes worked well in low light conditions. But who knows for certain? For those of us who don't live in black tents, it simply adds another agreeable dimension to some already admirable weavings. Regards, Kenneth |
| Subject | : | RE: |
| Author | : | Mark Hopkins |
| Date | : | 06-26-2000 on 10:57 p.m. |
| I'd be very interested to know more about Patrick's "#1" balisht. Is it symmetrically or asymmetrically knotted? Is it double wefted? And what are its dimensions? The rather elaborate end finishes make me wonder if it was intended as a pillow case. I have a piece of similar size using the same end finishes whose design elements suggest it to be a pediatric sofreh. Tell me more. MH |
| Subject | : | RE:#1 balisht |
| Author | : | Patrick Weiler |
| Date | : | 06-27-2000 on 02:12 a.m. |
| jpweil00@gte.net Mark, The #1 balisht is the one with several columns of symmetrical knots along each side and including some rows where the symmetrical knots go most of the way across the red main border. The rest of the rug is woven with asymmetrical knots. There is a thread earlier in this salon showing the knotting close up. The width is 16" and the length is 30 1/2" of which 25" is pile. It has two shots of dark brown weft between rows of knots. The #2 balisht also has 16" width and 25" length. If it was woven as a pillow instead of for transport or storage it would certainly explain the relative lack of wear, at least in the center of the weaving. The outer edges are worn down to the knots. Patrick Weiler |
| Subject | : | RE: |
| Author | : | Marvin Amstey |
| Date | : | 06-28-2000 on 09:37 a.m. |
| mamstey1@rochester.rr.com Hi Mark, If there are pediatric sofreh, could you define this in relation to an adolescent and geriatric sofreh? Best regards, Marvin |
| Subject | : | RE: |
| Author | : | Mark+Hopkins |
| Date | : | 06-28-2000 on 11:06 p.m. |
| Hi Marvin: It all has to do with the ability to analyze residual bodily fluids, which you as an MD are far more versed in than me. MH |