TurkoTek Discussion Boards

Subject  :  Birds and dragons
Author  :  Yon Bard
Date  :  05-21-2000 on 10:11 a.m.
Splendid examples, particularly the Hermann one! The theme, if not the execution, of these embroideries seems very similar to that of the phoenix and dragon carpets. Any relationship? Steve, when you talk of 'not understanding' the design I presune you mean that the embroiderer didn't know what the design elements were supposed to signify, and just saw a pattern that she unsuccessfully tried to imitate. But imitating a design shouldn't be that difficult, so if the results are so far from the original perhaps it indicates a deliberate attempt to create something different, and we should judge it on its own esthetic merits (not too great in the case of your last two examples) rather than on its faithfulness to the original?

Subject  :  RE:Birds and dragons
Author  :  Steve Price
Date  :  05-21-2000 on 11:12 a.m.
sprice@hsc.vcu.edu Dear Yon, First, let me say a word or two about the reproduction of the embroideries as images on our monitors. I've seen only two of these five in person, the second one (from HALI) and the fourth (from ORIENTAL RUG REVIEW). They are very much more beautiful than you might guess from the monitor images. The other three look pretty much like they do in the pictures that I scanned. Is that true to the original? I don't know. Are these related to the dragon and phoenix carpets? I suspect so, but it's hard to be less vague than that. When I refer to the artist not understanding the motifs, I mean that the embroiderer was reproducing what she thought were the essential elements of the traditional design, but lost them because she failed to understand what they are. Whether this is degeneration or progress, I suppose, depends on what we believe her intentions to have been. That, of course, is unknowable. Is it so easy to copy something you don't understand? It is, if you copy it literally. Not so if you try to capture its essence. Let me offer an example, from African art. A few years ago a millionaire art collector, reputed to have commissioned a number of fake objects of art (I have first person knowledge of this occurring in at least one item), was murdered. His estate was auctioned off locally, and I attended the sale to see what I could find in his African stuff. Now, there is an African tribe known as the Senufo who make a peculiar kind of mask in which what look like flames are emanating from an animal's mouth on each side. It is known as a "firespitter" in the marketplace. There was one of these in the estate sale, but instead of flames from the animal's mouth there was an extra pair of long ears on the cheeks. What does this have to do with anything? Well, the rumor was that the millionaire periodically sent photos of African masks to carvers in China, who were asked to make things similar to them and send the products to the millionaire. He's bury them in his backyard for awhile to convert them to "antiques", then sell them or donate them to museums. How did the firespitter turn into a four-eared animal? It seems reasonable to suspect that the Chinese carver, having no idea what the extra appendages at the corners of the mouth were, assumed that they were ears and attached them to the cheeks. That is, the carver didn't understand what he was making, and part of the essence of the traditional design was, therefore, lost. Presumably, the same carver could have created a perfet copy if commissioned to do so. I would take the position that the commissioned fake was degenerate, not a departure into an original new direction. Steve Price

Subject  :  RE:Birds and dragons
Author  :  Yon Bard
Date  :  05-21-2000 on 01:32 p.m.
Steve, suppose (to cite just one of many possible examples) Turkmen guls were proven to be 'misunderstood' renditions of flowers. Would you then dismiss 90% of Turkmen rugs as 'degenerate'? And what about the earlier simurghs and dragons? Aren't they pretty degenerate forms of 'real' birds and dragons? Except for some pictorial textiles, isn't just about every decorative element found on textiles a 'degenerate' rendition of some more or less distant ancestor? Regards, Yon

Subject  :  RE:Birds and dragons
Author  :  Steve Price
Date  :  05-21-2000 on 07:21 p.m.
sprice@hsc.vcu.edu Dear Yon, Sure, everything we see today, even the stuff that's a couple of hundred years old, is descended from something earlier. Some of the changes during that evolution are undoubtedly degenerations in the sense that I used the term (fairly clearly, I hope) in the post above. Some are innovations; that is, the artist knew what the motifs are supposed to be (and, in much ethnographic art, are supposed to do), but for one reason or another departed from the normal rendering. Most of the time we can't distinguish the innovations from the degenerations. In fact, one of the reasons I chose the dragon and simurgh Kaitags for a topic is that I think we can see the degenerations fairly clearly. I might point out in passing that the last one shown, the one that is clearly most degenerate if my criteria are correct, is also the most recent. It has synthetic dyes in its palette, and probably dates to the late 19th or early 20th century. Steve Price

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