Subject | : | Is the |
Author | : | Wendel Swan |
Date | : | 05-08-2000 on 08:34 a.m. |
wdswan@erols.com
Dear Daniel, I would like to address your "mystery rug." During the
plenary session on mystery rugs at ACOR, the following unusual item (which
Clive Rogers sold during the conference) was presented to the panel. ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Subject | : | RE:Is the |
Author | : | Steve Price |
Date | : | 05-08-2000 on 01:57 p.m. |
sprice@hsc.vcu.edu Dear Wendel and Everyone Else, It's generally recognized that some village people (not to be confused with The Village People) in central and western Asia are often descended from nomads who settled. It's also thought that they continued to use and make some of the weavings that their nomadic ancestors did, sometimes living in tents and sometimes living in houses that were furnished more or less like tents. This being the case, perhaps we shouldn't be too surprised to find things like box covers. In fact, from time to time I've wondered whether Shahsavan cargo bags were sometimes used that way in the places where they were made. Perhaps we clever Euro-Americans didn't invent that use after all. Steve Price |
Subject | : | RE:Is the |
Author | : | Deschuyteneer+Daniel |
Date | : | 05-08-2000 on 06:05 p.m. |
Daniel Deschuyteneer Dear Wendel and you all, Thanks for your very interesting input. I don’t know if my piece was a box cover. It’s only a fragment and I don’t know what was its original size. Kurdish weavers have woven large chuval having this size. The top end has frayed and not any remnants of an eventual closure system can be seen. Most traces of wear are seen along the main border of the stripped panel, just under the white ground border, as if this panel was folded and regularly eroded by friction along this border. Nevertheless the bottom panel is in perfect condition and shows no traces of wear. The bottom end is missing. Following Raoul (Mike) Tschebull and Parviz Tanavoli, if the striped panel was folded as I imagine it, it can’t be a fragment from a mafrash, because pile bottom are very unusual in mafrash. Large Lori-Bakhtiary chuval with pile bottom panel are well known but the two faces are always flatwoven, Yesterday, Chritoph Huber informed me that a four panel Ferraghan rug with a related design was actually for sale in Europe and available on the Web (URL available outside the board). Thanks, Daniel |
Subject | : | RE:Is the |
Author | : | Wendel+Swan |
Date | : | 05-08-2000 on 06:55 p.m. |
wdswan@erols.com Dear Daniel, Since the "box cover" that I encountered in Burlingame was the first and only one I have ever seen, I can only speculate as to how it may have been folded in use and, as I stated earlier, wear patterns didn't provide the answer. It seems logical that the box cover would have been folded at or near the ivory borders so that the two ends would have met to form either the bottom (that seems unlikely) or the top (thus exposing the greater decoration). At the time, however, the explanation as to which was the top and which was the bottom seemed to be just the reverse. The damage from an apparently removed closure system was at the ends of the weaving, consistent with a supposition that the two yellow panels met to close the cover. Given the wear pattern in your fragment, it appears that the striped panel would have been one half of the top (or, less likely, the bottom). That could account for the wear along the border of the striped panel. I have never heard of any mafrash having a pile bottom, but I had never previously heard of a box cover either and the box cover is really not different conceptually or much different in construction than a mafrash. It just happens to be all in pile and a "top" is woven. Incidentally, the pile on all Lori and Bakhtiyari mafrash I have seen does not cover the entire bottom, only the corners and edges subject to abrasion. The four-panel piece to which Huber referred seems to have an entirely different purpose, with all of the four panels being of the same dimensions. There are other kinds of Persian bags that share an essentially similar shape, but are nevertheless produced for different purposes. Salt bags and tobacco bags come to mind. Perhaps box covers were more prevalent than we might imagine and they and mafrash are merely variation of the same theme. On the other hand, yours may represent yet another kind of container with which we are unfamiliar. Wendel |
Subject | : | Box bag? |
Author | : | Kenneth+Thompson |
Date | : | 05-10-2000 on 10:40 a.m. |
wkthompson@aol.com
Dear Daniel et al: Mystery pieces must conspire to reveal themselves at
chosen moments. About three weeks ago at a Textile Museum presentation,
James Ffrench, formerly Christie's rug expert, displayed a NW Persian
carpet divided into three rectangular panels with repeating motifs. (I
don't have a picture of it and am working from a non-photographic memory).
It looked a bit like the ACOR piece posted by Wendel, but it only had
three panels. The immediate audience reaction was an opened mafrash or
bedding bag, but there were no wear or folding lines and no sign that it
had had side pieces. And, like the ACOR piece, what in a bedding bag would
be the "bottom" center panel was piled. There were various suggestions,
ranging from a divan cover (Ffrench's surmise) to a cover for a box-like
object. Ffrench said he and some colleagues believed that this was an
unidentified form that may be more common than we think and were exploring
the problem. The design reminded me of a "Kurdish bagface" that I had
bought on e-bay in January simply because it had an odd two-panel,
slightly unbalanced form, with the lower panel resembling some sort of
skirt. But upon examination I found my piece had been neatly cut and might
well have had the same "skirt" motif at both ends. Again, there is no wear
along what logically could be a fold line between the panels. Here is the
description as bought along with the photos: ![]() ![]() |
Subject | : | RE:Is the |
Author | : | Stephen Louw |
Date | : | 05-11-2000 on 01:24 p.m. |
See also the following, which is attributed by the auction house
selling the piece -- I wont reveal details -- to the Feraghan region,
ca.1900. It is 216 x 136 cm. ![]() |
Subject | : | RE:Is the |
Author | : | Daniel Deschuyteneer |
Date | : | 05-15-2000 on 09:59 a.m. |
daniel.d@infonie.be
Dear all, Like Wendel I had never previously heard of a box cover and as
Kenneth said this unidentified form that may be more common than we think.
Unfortunately, neither my chuval nor the Kenneth Thompson piece are box
covers. In "Tribal and Village Rugs from Arizona Collections", George W.
O’Bannon illustrates two closely related pieces tentatively labelled
Sanjabi Kurd. The first one, plate 45, is an unusual two panel torba from
a private collection,. measuring 4’8" x 3’6" ![]() ![]() |
Subject | : | RE:Is the |
Author | : | Patrick Weiler |
Date | : | 05-16-2000 on 12:21 a.m. |
jpweil00@gte.net Daniel, I had a chance to see the Clive Rogers rug at ACOR. Your rug with the same theme makes me think that, similar to the "Triclinium" rugs imitating and incorporating the features of the traditional Persian rug format, some adventurous (or commissioned) weavers had the idea to reproduce, in pile weave as an area rug, the mafrash style for a city dweller. It appears that the size of both weavings is close, and the overall size is approximately that of an average "area" rug. I have seen some mafrash opened up and displayed without the end panels. The appearance of these mafrash might influence a desire to reproduce the format on a weaving entirely of pile which could be not only displayed, but used as a floor rug. The wear pattern may be misleading, and could represent merely usage not designed into the weaving, but as a result of later applications. These are a fascinating and little known item that, in retrospect, could be more akin to late '50s automobile tailfins; decorative rather than functional appendages. Patrick Weiler |
Subject | : | RE:Is the |
Author | : | Wendel+Swan |
Date | : | 05-18-2000 on 07:47 a.m. |
Dear all, Daniel has privately brought to my attention a bag that may
take some of the mystery out of the Mysterious Two Panel Bag. You will
recall that one theory that Daniel advanced was that this two-panel rug
utilizes a "pile bottom panel at the bottom outside of the bag - half
exposed, half turned under - to act as a cushion against a donkey." The
following bag from Brian McDonald's Samarkand site and described as
"Antique Storage bag, Kurdish Tribes" illustrates perfectly the concept of
the folded pile panel (a bottom panel) on a bag. ![]() |
Subject | : | RE:Is the |
Author | : | Deschuyteneer Daniel |
Date | : | 05-18-2000 on 04:32 p.m. |
Dear all, I want to add that it was Mike Tschebull who suggested me the idea that this bag utilizes a "pile bottom panel at the bottom outside of the bag - half exposed, half turned under - to act as a cushion against a donkey." Also it's Kenneth Thompson, who first brought to my attention the bag from Brian McDonald's Samarkand site. He posted me also privately the photo of one of his two panel bag. A very interesting piece. I asked him some more information's and the permission to show it on the board. It's the last rush. Stay with us. Daniel |