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sprice@hsc.vcu.edu
Dear People, I've seen ornaments on all sorts of things that
could plausibly be related to carpet motifs, but Christoph's
sketch of the floor plan of the Dashly Palace, a 4000+ year
old ruin, is the only instance I recall of something like a
building plan being related to a motif. Just to refresh your
memory, here's the Dashly foundation. And here it is
simplified to eliminate the entry. This motif, as Christoph
points out, can be found in textiles throughout central and
western Asia. The foundation plan of many European cathedrals
is laid out in the shape of a cross; that is, the architecture
is itself a motif with rich ethnographic significance to
Christians. Does anyone know of other possible examples of
such things? Regards, Steve Price
Date: 04-10-2000 on 06:41
p.m.
Christoph+Huber
2. RE:Dashly Palace Floor
Plan
huber-ch@pilatusnet.ch
Dear Steve There are other claims of a connection between
architecture and carpet motifs: The medallions of the
Ardebil-carpets shall reflect the dome of the shrine for which
they were made and the description of Plate 11 in
Balpinar/Hirsch, ‘Vakiflar Museum Istanbul, Carpets’ ends with
the following sentence: “It is one of a type of carpets woven
from an architectural pattern, one which has become a
traditionalized carpet-type of eastern Anatolia.” With many
thanks for the opportunity to discuss here some of my
thoughts, Christoph
Date: 04-11-2000 on 05:06
p.m.
Yon+Bard
3. RE:Dashly Palace Floor
Plan
At the Philadelphia ICOC,
Alberto Levi gave a talk on 'Architectural motifs in early
Turkish carpets.' On the subject of prehistoric origins of
designs, I would expect no less, given the continuity of
existence. I am no more astonished by it than the by fact that
I had ancestors living at that time. At the same time I must
repeat the often made observation that similarities in design
across space and time proves nothing. Only an unbroken chain
of documented relationships can provide historical proof.
Regards, Yon
Date: 04-11-2000 on 09:48
p.m.
Steve Price
4. RE:Dashly Palace Floor
Plan
sprice@hsc.vcu.edu
Dear Yon, My recollection (which is hardly ever perfect
nowadays, I admit) of Alberto Levi's talk in Philadelphia is
that the "architectural motifs" in his title were things that
decorated buildings; carvings on doorways, lintels, etc.,
rather than the foundation plans. Steve
Price
Date: 04-11-2000 on 10:35
p.m.
Yon Bard
5. RE:Dashly Palace Floor
Plan
Steve, no, Levi's talk was
mostly about structural features of mosques like domes and
spandrels, etc. He used a term that I cannot remember for the
things that support the dome. I would say that the so-called
Cairene rugs are renditions of mosque plans. Regards,
Yon
Date: 04-12-2000 on 08:54
a.m.
+Kenneth Thompson+
6. RE:Dashly Palace Floor
Plan
wkthompson@aol.com Speculation
over an architectural source for this motif based on
archeological excavations is not entirely new. In a book
published in the 1930's (Les Arts Decoratifs Turcs), Turkish
art historican Celal Esad Arseven guessed that the Sumerian
ziggurat was the source of the same design. By adding some
Dragon Feet, he came up with the elements of the Memling gul.
Since he was writing during an era of major Sumerian and
Chaldean archeological finds, his attribution is
understandable, if unconfirmable. Regards, Kenneth
Thompson
Date: 04-12-2000 on 12:54
p.m.
Wendel+Swan
7. RE:Dashly Palace Floor
Plan
Dear Steve and Yon, Let's talk
squinches. I find the title of Alberto Levi's paper in
Philadelphia ("Architectural Motifs in Early Turkish Carpets")
to have been somewhat misleading, since it dealt only with a
single motif (the so-called "squinch" motif) which could quite
easily been seen as having arisen from any of several sources
- not necessarily architectural. However, it is interesting to
see how a single motif can be found in rugs of disparate
structure, design and format. Since he illustrated the paper
with many images of carpets but none of any architectural
elements, including squinches, it would appear that Levi's
intent was to present rugs of the "group" having the squinch
motif, not to contend for a purported origin of the motif.
However, the rugs seem to form a group only in the sense that
they all contain this secondary motif. Levi referred to the
motifs as squinches because they are "said to be" derived from
the squinches supporting the domes in some Seljuk mosques. No
evidence was presented to substantiate that theory. Very
clearly, Levi was making was no reference to floor plans. He
shows a Fostat fragment with the so-called squinch motif, but
if that particular early motif was derived from a squinch, it
must have been an ornamented or decorated squinch. For those
who wonder, my dictionary defines a squinch as "a support (as
an arch, lintel or corbeling) carried across the corner of a
room under a superimposed mass." So far as I can tell, to say
that any motif or object resembles a squinch is not to be
particularly descriptive or precise. At the same conference,
Murray Eiland showed examples of ornamental architectural
elements, such as the "stars and bars," also found in carpets.
The literature otherwise abounds with comparisons of
architecture and carpets, although the examples are primarily
of decorative motifs and not floor plans.
Wendel
Date: 04-12-2000 on 03:22
p.m.
Patrick+Weiler
8. RE:Dashly Palace Floor
Plan
jpweil00@gte.net
Steve, There is a reference to the Sevan Kazak design in the
book Weavers, Merchants and Kings, The Inscribed Rugs of
Armenia, by Lucy Der Manuelian and Murray Eiland. They say
that the Sevan Kazak design "is thought by some to relate to
the floor plan of Armenian churches." The question here, too,
is whether the design, which could predate Christianity, came
before the descriptive appellation. As far as architecture
influencing rug designs, one could even speculate
(hypothetically, of course) that the turreted Salor gul is
derived from the design of a yurt, with the turrets being the
staking ropes. The concern here is whether the Dashly Palace
floor plan influenced the rug design, was coincidentally
similar, or even that a precursor design influenced one or
both (and in what order?). One thing is likely: art and
religion have been inextricably intertwined for as long as
both have existed. Patrick Weiler
Date: 04-17-2000 on 12:48
a.m.
John Howe
9. More Floor
Plans
rjhowe@erols.com
Dear Folks - The example that Steve calls attention to here is
striking in its similarity to a design frequently seen on
rugs, but I suspect that we could rather quickly find almost
anything if we went on a search. I have mentioned previously
that my upstairs neighbor is a published expert on Roman
architecture and stimulated by Steve’s question, I simply
picked up two of his books to see what I could find quickly.
Here are three images, none of them as striking perhaps as the
one Christoph has provided but they suggest what we are likely
to find if we look. The first floor plan is of the Pantheon.
Lots of eight-lobed designs might seem similar. This next floor plan
is from Bill MacDonald’s book on early Christian and Byzantine
architecture and is labeled “S. Vitale, Ravenna. A third floor plan is
from the same book and is labelled “S. Sophia, Kiev. And I haven’t even opened
Bill’s most recent work on Hadrian’s villa. Although
structural constraints may interfere with floor plan design
possibilities, there seems no basic reason why we shouldn’t
find many designs we find looking down on building floor plans
that we find looking down on rugs. Regards, R. John
Howe
Date: 04-19-2000 on 06:21
a.m.
Christoph+Huber
10. RE:Dashly Palace
Floor Plan
huber-ch@pilatusnet.ch
Dear John Yes, your right: There is the possibility to revise
my paper so that it shows the similarity of carpet ornaments
with Central American (African, Oceanic, ...) art. But I tried
to deal not only with similarity. I tried, by making
references to different studies, to embed my hypothesis of a
motif tradition into a wider context of our idea of the
development and the mutual influence of the cultures under
discussion. I guess doing the same with the ‘Central America
theory’ would be much harder... But this support of my
hypothesis by additional hypothesises doesn’t transform it
into a proof, that’s obvious. And it was never my intention to
produce any proof or ‘truth’. My goal was mainly a sound
measure of uncertainty. Finally I don’t believe that there is
only one origin for an ornament. I think that the above
mentioned ‘mutual influence’ is also in relation to the
development of a single motif a much better concept. And not
every group of ornaments has the same long history. (The one
of the classical Turkmen guls for example seems to me in
comparison rather short... ) Regards,
Christoph
And here it is
simplified to eliminate the entry. 
This motif, as Christoph
points out, can be found in textiles throughout central and
western Asia. The foundation plan of many European cathedrals
is laid out in the shape of a cross; that is, the architecture
is itself a motif with rich ethnographic significance to
Christians. Does anyone know of other possible examples of
such things? Regards, Steve Price
This next floor plan
is from Bill MacDonald’s book on early Christian and Byzantine
architecture and is labeled “S. Vitale, Ravenna. 
A third floor plan is
from the same book and is labelled “S. Sophia, Kiev. 
And I haven’t even opened
Bill’s most recent work on Hadrian’s villa. Although
structural constraints may interfere with floor plan design
possibilities, there seems no basic reason why we shouldn’t
find many designs we find looking down on building floor plans
that we find looking down on rugs. Regards, R. John
Howe