| Subject | : | Stirring up marital troubles |
| Author | : | Marvin Amstey |
| Date | : | 09-29-1999 on 08:24 a.m. |
| A cute story that we experienced was the two year saga of trying to buy a great Chinese pillar carpet from Luciano Coen about 17 or 18 years ago. It was the cover of his New year's greeting card which prompted me to try to buy it - below his asking price. The correspondance went on and on for nearly two years and included a letter that he wrote to my wife, Freddie, asking her how she could live with me. Ultimately, I bought it after the two years - at his asking price - but not before another flurry of correspondance about why the asking price should not have been raised due to inflation. Today, that prolonged correspondance would have been accomplished by E-mail in short order, but probably without the same outcome. We remained friends. Regards, Marvin |
| Subject | : | RE:Stirring up marital troubles |
| Author | : | Patrick Weiler |
| Date | : | 10-02-1999 on 10:32 p.m. |
| jpweiler@worldnet.att.net Marvin, Speaking of Marital Troubles, the week before I got married, pinching pennies for the honeymoon and expenses, I was on a business trip out of state. I came accross a perfect Shirvan Lesghi Star carpet. It was worth thousands, and was for sale at $700.00. My first thought was that this was the rug I had been waiting to come across: underpriced, in an out-of-the-way antique shop, where the best rug they normally carry is a 40's painted Sarouk mat. I didn't buy it. I am still married. I still kick myself. As Steve said, the rug keeps getting better in retrospect, but this was the Real Thing. The only other Real Thing I saw was an early 19th century Salor three gul bag face being used as a booth mat at a bicycle show. The owner inherited it from her in-laws parents, who got it in Turkey early in the century. She called it a Turkish prayer rug. She would not sell it to me because of the sentimental value. But, when she is at home she rolls it up to keep drafts out from under the kitchen door. I guess the romantic in me sees that it is being used up in the way it was intended, as household furnishings. The rug collector in me sees that they have a door stop worth thousands of dollars. It is like using a Van Gogh for a closet door. Keep Looking. Patrick Weiler |
| Subject | : | RE:Stirring up marital troubles |
| Author | : | Jim+Allen |
| Date | : | 10-04-1999 on 02:45 p.m. |
| Isn't it axiomatic that when the funds are at a minimum the "deals" are at a maximum. I know they always have been for me. Jim Allen |
| Subject | : | RE:Stirring up marital troubles |
| Author | : | Marvin Amstey |
| Date | : | 10-05-1999 on 01:18 p.m. |
| Dear Jim, That could be the theme song for all collectors. Regards, Marvin |
| Subject | : | RE:Stirring up marital troubles |
| Author | : | Yon Bard |
| Date | : | 10-05-1999 on 02:09 p.m. |
| doryon@aol.com When one encounters a piece like the Salor chuval, abused through ignorance by the owner who's yet unwilling to sell, should one tell the owner what it's worth so that at least it will be treated with respect in the future? I'd like your opinions on the subject. Regards, Yon |
| Subject | : | RE:Stirring up marital troubles |
| Author | : | Steve Price |
| Date | : | 10-05-1999 on 03:26 p.m. |
| sprice@hsc.vcu.edu Dear Yon, You must have been reading my mind (that's what I get for letting it lie around open). I think it is imperative to try to persuade the owner to take care of the thing. If he/she won't sell it to a collector because of its sentimental value, you could point out that using it as a doorstop will destroy it, and that this is important no matter what reason he/she has for wanting to keep it. Steve Price |
| Subject | : | RE:Stirring up marital troubles |
| Author | : | Marvin Amstey |
| Date | : | 10-05-1999 on 08:35 p.m. |
| But would you tell the owner what it is worth? Marvin |
| Subject | : | RE:Stirring up marital troubles |
| Author | : | Steve Price |
| Date | : | 10-05-1999 on 10:36 p.m. |
| sprice@hsc.vcu.edu Of course I'd tell her what I think it's worth. That's a simple matter of ethics. Besides, why would anyone avoid telling her what it's worth? She's already made it clear that she won't sell it for sentimental reasons, so the price she wants for it isn't even an issue. Steve Price |
| Subject | : | RE:Stirring up marital troubles |
| Author | : | Marvin Amstey |
| Date | : | 10-06-1999 on 11:36 a.m. |
| mamstey1@rochester.rr.com I agree that is the corect thing to do; however, how many times have we all seen dealers, pickers, whomever tell someone the item is worth 5x when it is actually 10x? The owner, who wouldn't sell because he/she thought it was worth only x and also complained of sentimental value, now rethinks the sentimentality when weighed against the 5x offer. Best regards, Marvin |
| Subject | : | RE:Stirring up marital troubles |
| Author | : | Vincent+Keers |
| Date | : | 10-06-1999 on 03:36 p.m. |
| Dear friends, What's wrong with dealers? I've seen some mails on another rugsite and re-e"mailed the guys I didn't like the way they corresponded. They deleted it prompt, wich was a wise thing to do. There seems to be a kind of war goïng on between two rugsites. If this is the standard attitude of dealers etc. I think I'm beginning to understand your attitude. I'm a dealer, and I'm proud and glad, I can get very exited when I find a good, genuine rug. People can see it in my eyes. My enthousiasme forbids them to leave me alone without the treasured rug. Sometimes they give it to me for free. This is the most beautifull thing that can happen, I only have to inform them when it's restored. If they decide to pay me the restoring price, everybody is happy. If they don't, everybody is happy. Be honest, act civilized and life is good. Don't be to severe on dealers. With best regards, Vincent |
| Subject | : | RE:Stirring up marital troubles |
| Author | : | Jerry Silverman |
| Date | : | 10-06-1999 on 05:08 p.m. |
| Dear Vincent, Yours is the most original solution to this dilemma I have ever encountered. It sounds like a great way to eliminate the stigma attached to the knowledgeable taking advantage of the ignorant. -Jerry- |
| Subject | : | RE:Stirring up marital troubles |
| Author | : | Steve Price |
| Date | : | 10-06-1999 on 05:39 p.m. |
| sprice@hsc.vcu.edu Dear Vincent, I don't think the folks who haunt this site are anti-dealer, although they have very strong feelings about dishonesty. Most of the dealers I know are reasonable people of high principle. A few aren't, and the bad ones are really bad. Let me tell you a story about one of the dealers in Richmond, John Lorraine, who, I'm sorry to say, died about 2 years ago. A local person came into his shop with a Shirvan prayer rug, wanting to sell it. John told the guy that he would buy it for something like $2000, the market for antique rugs in Richmond not being very strong, and also told him that if he sent it to Sotheby's it would probably bring much more. To Sotheby's it went, sold for something around $9000. John was, as most dealers are, an ethical guy who would no more cheat than be cheated. Steve Price |
| Subject | : | RE:Stirring up marital troubles |
| Author | : | Jerry Silverman |
| Date | : | 10-07-1999 on 03:40 a.m. |
| Dear Vincent, I agree with Steve that rug dealers are - as a group - no more or less honest/dishonest than any other group of businesspeople. (Steve didn't actually say this, but I'm sure he would have had he not been in a rush to tell us the story about the Shirvan.) The only pet peeve I have with dealers is the "Not For Sale" response I get when I finally find something worth owning after going through everything in their store. I've even got a name for it: The Hustler Scenario. Those of you who've seen "The Hustler" probably know what I'm talking about. Those of you who haven't, let me synopsize: Paul Newman play Fast Eddie Felson, a pool hustler (a man who plays deceptively poorly in order to lure his opponent into larger bets that he will win by then playing up to his capacity). Eventually, people in the pool halls get to know Fast Eddie and won't bet with him, even left-handed. So The Hustler Scenario plays out in a rug store when the salesman decides he might not know as much about some of his rugs as a customer. Why is he interested in that beat-up Tekke chuval? thinks the salesman. Is it really a Salor, and I missed it? he worries. I'd better not sell it to him, just in case...he decides. I've actually had dealers take rugs out of my hands and take them back to their offices with muttered excuses of "How'd that get out here?" I'll bet I'm not the only one of us to whom this has happened. -Jerry- |
| Subject | : | RE:Stirring up marital troubles |
| Author | : | Vincent Keers |
| Date | : | 10-07-1999 on 11:28 a.m. |
| Dear Steve, In the Netherlands it is arranged by law, when the rug has a pricetag the dealer has to sell you the rug. If, however the customer is not willing to pay him the price, he can take the item back. Even if the pricetag is wrong, to cheap, the dealer has to deliver you the rug. If the rugs aren't priced, get out as quickly as you can. Why bother? The cliënts deside who is worthwile and who isn't. (I hope). Best regards, Vincent |
| Subject | : | RE:Stirring up marital troubles |
| Author | : | Marvin Amstey |
| Date | : | 10-07-1999 on 12:16 p.m. |
| Here's another cute story that illustrates Jerry's Hustler scenario, only in this case, the dealer, who was in his 70's really loved his pieces and the NFS was for real, not a hustle. In this case, I was simply frustrated and worn out. I wrote him a letter stating that it was no longer worth my time to be teased and frustrated by not letting me buy anything. I added further that I would no longer be coming to his shop. Much to my surprise, this upset him, and his wife called telling me how unhappy the dealer was that I would no longer visit. The following week I took a bottle of wine and two glasses to his home where we negotiated the sale of 3 small Turkomen pieces which are the pride of my collection. He is now in his 80's, we are fast friends, and the moral of the story is be assertive - and friendly. Best regards, Marvin |