Re: Rug 4 Only

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Posted by Michael Wendorf on August 09, 1999 at 11:23:25:

In Reply to: Re: Rug 4 Only posted by Wendel Swan on August 09, 1999 at 05:22:27:

: Dear all,

: The connection between Rug 4 and the Turkic tradition, as has been pointed out by Mike and Michael, is unmistakable.

: The shape of the perimeter of the medallion in the Rothberg example illustrated is quite similar to the 2-1-2 small pattern Holbein rugs. The interior drawing is virtually identical to the center of a Karadja rug illustrated by Peter Saunders in Tribal Visions (plate 31). The secondary border of the Saunders rug is also identical. The "Karadja" rugs, however, share their outlines with the Ushak medallions.

: Several years ago, the Washington Textile group exhibited what may have been a mafrash side panel with two of these "Ushak" medallions, but much more articulately drawn than either the Frauenknecht or Saunders pieces. I seem to recall that it had cotton warps.

: Michael did not, I believe, attribute this group of bags to the Shahsavan. He only said that some sellers were calling them Shahsavan. In my view, such an attribution is one made incorrectly and only by default - much as the Kurdish attribution commonly is. These bags are not Shahsavan and almost certainly not Kurdish.

: An attribution of Northwest Persian or Azerbaijan village is probably as specific as one is likely to get, given the widespread use of these motifs.

: I have seen several bags from this group and I have never felt that any of them were what we would call, in the broadest sense, tribal or nomadic. These have a bit more filler than others.

: Wendel

Dear Gentlemen:
Wendel has it, I do not think the bags are Shahsevan or Kurdish, that is simply what dealers have labelled them by default. I also agree that a village label fits best.
One other observation, the interior design element contained in the medallions seems somewhat less like an endless knot than some I have seen and more as if it is derived from a leaf like floral element found routinely on the Avshan pattern rugs that are common throughout nw persia and azerbaijan over a lenghtly historical period commencing at the latest in the 18th century. Villagers seem to have been very adept at isolating design elements out of more classical patterns and interpreting them in their own way. Either way, interesting bags.
Thank you, Michael W.

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: : : Dear all, : : The connection between Rug 4 and the Turkic tradition, as has been pointed out by Mike and Michael, is unmistakable. : : The shape of the perimeter of the medallion in the Rothberg example illustrated is quite similar to the 2-1-2 small pattern Holbein rugs. The interior drawing is virtually identical to the center of a Karadja rug illustrated by Peter Saunders in Tribal Visions (plate 31). The secondary border of the Saunders rug is also identical. The "Karadja" rugs, however, share their outlines with the Ushak medallions. : : Several years ago, the Washington Textile group exhibited what may have been a mafrash side panel with two of these "Ushak" medallions, but much more articulately drawn than either the Frauenknecht or Saunders pieces. I seem to recall that it had cotton warps. : : Michael did not, I believe, attribute this group of bags to the Shahsavan. He only said that some sellers were calling them Shahsavan. In my view, such an attribution is one made incorrectly and only by default - much as the Kurdish attribution commonly is. These bags are not Shahsavan and almost certainly not Kurdish. : : An attribution of Northwest Persian or Azerbaijan village is probably as specific as one is likely to get, given the widespread use of these motifs. : : I have seen several bags from this group and I have never felt that any of them were what we would call, in the broadest sense, tribal or nomadic. These have a bit more filler than others. : : Wendel : Dear Gentlemen: : Wendel has it, I do not think the bags are Shahsevan or Kurdish, that is simply what dealers have labelled them by default. I also agree that a village label fits best. : One other observation, the interior design element contained in the medallions seems somewhat less like an endless knot than some I have seen and more as if it is derived from a leaf like floral element found routinely on the Avshan pattern rugs that are common throughout nw persia and azerbaijan over a lenghtly historical period commencing at the latest in the 18th century. Villagers seem to have been very adept at isolating design elements out of more classical patterns and interpreting them in their own way. Either way, interesting bags. : Thank you, Michael W.

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