Re: solid foundations?

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Posted by E.Abit on June 29, 1999 at 02:46:02:

In Reply to: Re: solid foundations? posted by Erol Abit on June 29, 1999 at 02:30:27:

: Dear Yon,

: : : My emphasize is on "solid foundations" rather than traditional ways or lore. What solid foundation means? Erol

: : Erol, I'll give you some examples of what constitutes a 'solid foundation:'
: : 1. Appearance of a rug in a painting of known date, as is the case with the Holbeins, Lottos, etc.

: I know of only 3 such rug that appeared in paintings. Maybe, it is more but not more than 10-20 and this is neglectable amount in whole amount of rugs.

: : 2. A well documented provenance, as, e.g., a rug that was taken from the Ottomans at the siege of Vienna, or commisioned by a Polish nobleman from weavers of Safavid Persia.

: I have no idea on these rugs whether their numbers are significant in whole rugs.

: : 3. Detailed observations made by travellers in the region where the rugs were woven.

: If you consider this is a solid foundation, it must be handled carefully. It is known already that there are errors (or contradicts with other "more solid foundations") in some (may be "many", I don't know) notes of travellers. Maybe, they are not errors but simply misinterpretetaions by those who studied on these traveller notes. I know of a famous traveller whose travelling notes are being interpretated differently by different groups of researchers.

: : In contrast, 'traditional lore' may be accurate in many cases, but is embellished with myths that develop over the years in others, and without corroboration from other sources (such as the above) cannot be accepted as reliable.

: I didn't want to support "traditional lore" with my words in my first post (sorry much English errors in the first.) I was just trying to say the other known methods too which you related to "solid foundation" are more or less in the category of "traditional lore" if I am not wrong in the terminology and about the meanings of terms.

: Regards,
: Erol

I understand from solid foundation that without using other objects (remark: their positions are also in the discussions by others. also this kind of knowledge is fluent or flue), they are those by experimental tests on the rugs. But in this, science fails as in the case of C14. E.Abit

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: : Dear Yon, : : : : My emphasize is on "solid foundations" rather than traditional ways or lore. What solid foundation means? Erol : : : Erol, I'll give you some examples of what constitutes a 'solid foundation:' : : : 1. Appearance of a rug in a painting of known date, as is the case with the Holbeins, Lottos, etc. : : I know of only 3 such rug that appeared in paintings. Maybe, it is more but not more than 10-20 and this is neglectable amount in whole amount of rugs. : : : 2. A well documented provenance, as, e.g., a rug that was taken from the Ottomans at the siege of Vienna, or commisioned by a Polish nobleman from weavers of Safavid Persia. : : I have no idea on these rugs whether their numbers are significant in whole rugs. : : : 3. Detailed observations made by travellers in the region where the rugs were woven. : : If you consider this is a solid foundation, it must be handled carefully. It is known already that there are errors (or contradicts with other "more solid foundations") in some (may be "many", I don't know) notes of travellers. Maybe, they are not errors but simply misinterpretetaions by those who studied on these traveller notes. I know of a famous traveller whose travelling notes are being interpretated differently by different groups of researchers. : : : In contrast, 'traditional lore' may be accurate in many cases, but is embellished with myths that develop over the years in others, and without corroboration from other sources (such as the above) cannot be accepted as reliable. : : I didn't want to support "traditional lore" with my words in my first post (sorry much English errors in the first.) I was just trying to say the other known methods too which you related to "solid foundation" are more or less in the category of "traditional lore" if I am not wrong in the terminology and about the meanings of terms. : : Regards, : : Erol : I understand from solid foundation that without using other objects (remark: their positions are also in the discussions by others. also this kind of knowledge is fluent or flue), they are those by experimental tests on the rugs. But in this, science fails as in the case of C14. E.Abit

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