richard tomlinson

Hello all

Over the past year or so, I have switched my interest in rug collecting further east, namely China and Tibet. I am therefore seeking to gain some insight into certain aspects fo this very interesting area of rug collecting.

I will start with dragons, a common theme in East Asian art in general. Accordong to Wikipedia ;

"Historically, the dragon was the symbol of the Emperor of China. In the Zhou Dynasty, the 5-clawed dragon was assigned to the Son of Heaven, the 4-clawed dragon to the nobles (zhuhou, seigneur), and the 3-clawed dragon to the ministers (daifu). In the Qin Dynasty, the 5-clawed dragon was assigned to represent the Emperor while the 4-clawed and 3-clawed dragons were assigned to the commoners."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon

Below is a Chinese mat that has a dragon with 3 claws.





Does that tell us anything about this rug? Do rugs depicting 5-clawed dragons tell us something different? Or is it simply a random occurence on Chinese rugs?

I look forward to any help.

Regards
Richard Tomlinson

Steve Price

Hi Richard

My guess is that the interpretation of motifs in old Chinese works is more reliable than it is for tribal works, mainly because there are written records that go back very far in Chinese history.

On the other hand, the rules about numbers of toes on dragons seems to be very ancient (by our standards, where anything more than 200 years old is ancient) and imperial rules haven't existed since about 1910, when the country was no longer ruled by emperors.

The question for me, then, becomes, how old is your mat? If it's 200+ years, the old rules may apply to it. If it's less than 100 years, the dragons' characteristics probably aren't related to social class in the imperial system. Do you have a reasonable estimate of the age of your piece?

Regards

Steve Price

richard tomlinson

Hi Steve

Firstly, the rug is not mine - I provided the images as an example. I believe the rug was dated as C1900.

In a way, you have partly answered my question - rugs made from roughly the late 19th C onwards most likely do not conform to rules vis-a-vis claw count.

So what of older rugs? I know there are 5-clawed dragons on rugs of significant age. But do we find 3-clawed dragons or 4-clawed dragons on Chinese rugs from say 1850 or earlier? If yes, what do they tell us?

Regards

Richard

Steve Price

Hi Richard

The Wikipedia article to which you linked in your first post includes this interesting paragraph:
In Chinese culture today, the dragon is mostly used for decorative purposes. It is a taboo to disfigure a depiction of a dragon; for example, an advertisement campaign commissioned by Nike, which featured the American basketball player LeBron James slaying a dragon (as well as beating up an old Kung Fu master), was immediately banned by the Chinese government after public outcry over disrespect.

I can't quite wrap my brain around the juxtaposition of "it's mostly just decorative" and "it's taboo to disfigure one". Maybe it's a cultural thing, but our taboos about disfiguring are generally restricted to things with religious, nationalistic, or ethnic significance. The only exception that I can think of is the taboo against stepping on someone's blue suede shoes.

Regards

Steve Price

richard tomlinson

"The only exception that I can think of is the taboo against stepping on someone's blue suede shoes."

you're kinda stepping on someone's 5-clawed foot aren't you :-)

richard

Marvin Amstey

Here are two pieces from my collection. The pillar rug is dated to c.1800, and the chairback to c. 1825. Each has five toes, but the detail and drawing of the pillar rug-toes is much better than the chairback-toes. I have no explanation for this if one considers the old definition that the five-toed dragons are assigned to the emperor.

Patrick Weiler

Here is one of the two dragons on a silk and metal thread embroidery. The confronting dragons are chasing the flaming pearl, similar to Marvin's chair-back, and have five claws on each of their four feet. The full embroidery is a 9' long altar-frontal hanging from the 19th century.
The dragon scales are gold-wrapped thread and the "shadows" along the bottom are oxidized silver-thread. You can see the glint of the gold threads along the body near the right foot.



The forward leg is the left-hand and the rearward leg is the right hand of the dragon. The rear feet are a couple of undulations of the dragon body away.
The large size of the hanging may indicate it was used in a temple rather than as a residential hanging.
It is probably old enough that it conforms to the conventions of the time regarding claw-count.

Patrick Weiler

richard tomlinson

Hi All

According to Lorenz's book 'A Hisory of Chinese Rugs', the rules about the number of claws allowed (5 claws for the Emperor and first and second rank princes, 4 claws for lesser mortals) were not strictly adhered to up to 1783. However in that year , an imperial decree enacted that only imperial dragons could have 5 claws. Apparently thereafter this was religiously obeyed until 1912. After that, we find 5 clawed dragons everywhere. Lorenz also mentions that 3 clawed dragons (water dragons) are rare, but does not say for which period.

I understand too that the Japanese imperial dragon has only 3 claws, and the Korean dragon has 7 claws.

Regards
Richard Tomlinson

PS - Steve, I thought we had FOUR fingers on each hand???

Steve Price

Hi Richard

I'm not sure about the number. I get confused and lose track of where I am when I try to count them.

Actually, I'm reminded of a Disney version of Dickens' Christmas Carol. Goofy plays Marley's ghost. He appears in Scrooge's bedroom and announces, "Tonight you will be visited by THREE ghosts." The gesture while saying this is to hold his hand in front of Scrooge's face with two fingers raised.

Regards

Steve Price

Jeff Sun

A couple possible explanations:

1. They may have been gifts of the imperial family to a monastary, seeing as pillar rugs are for temple use only.

2. They are not as old as they otherwise appear.

3. The "rule of toes" was not rigorously applied, which I think most likely. Even the early rug writer Gordon Leitch questioned how often the "rules" came into play.

richard tomlinson

hi all

if claws, as a design feature, cannot determine a date - and it seems design alone stands for nothing in dating most rugs - what are the best determiners for dating chinese rugs? do foliate dragons count for anything? must we look at a combination of factors - colour, structure, desgn, other?, etc.....

with my limited knowledge, i have 3 loose general 'rules';

1. chinese rugs sporting a thinnish (2-4 inch) brown border (often corroded) rather than a blue one tend to be older

2. the fewer the number of warp strands (e.g 3 ply v 5 ply), the older the piece

3. old chinese rugs with cotton and wool foundations (most have all cotton) are very old

agree or disagree? this is what eiland says...

does anyone else have any other general rules for determining age from design or other aspects?

help me !!!!!!!!!!!

regards
richard

Jeff Sun

The problem with general rules, is that they are generalities, and cannot cover the multiple exceptions, and generally rugs have to be evaluated on an individual level. Sorry for the poor pun.

Regarding your criteria:

1. Thinnish brown vs blue border: Really have no idea about this. Eiland may have thought that (or more likely his Chinese source), but I have never heard this anywhere else.

2. Generally if something is more than 3 ply, it is machine made. Machine spun string and yarn made it's inroads into China about 1850 and instantly took over from hand spun...almost entirely. ALMOST is the key. You can usually assess this by a visual inspection in any case as manually spun fibers have less consistency in thickness than machine spun string.

Nonetheless, hand spinning continues still in China. I had a Tibetan rug made in 2010 with handspun warp and weft, so by itself this is not enough to say a rug is old. It's just a clue.

3. Wool vs cotton. GENERALLY, yes. But cotton spun warp and weft has been available for a VERY long time at this point. Likewise, spun wool is still in use, so you can only get a very approximate feel from this.

For me, I always try and get as much backstory to the rug as possible: Where is it from? How did the individual come by it? This is difficult to do if you are buying outside of China, and even inside China they could be feeding you a line of BS, but at some point it comes down to trust.

You also need to look at the actual history of the country. Whereas a turkman rug migh be "old" if it is from the 19th century, in China the story is much different. There are in truth very, very few antique Chinese rugs remaining. The 20th century was not kind to Chinese luxury goods.

For example: Tibetan rugs (what I collect) are generally considered "old" if they date from before 1949. I have seen very few that could be from the 19th century and I must say they were not impressive. The designs were not elaborate and the colors were muddy. Very worn. In short utilitarian pieces that show their age.

So if somebody is trying to sell you a perfect rug with a tale of fantastic antiquity, I would be sceptical. Very sceptical. Check every avenue of investigation. But that is just me.

Richard Tomlinson

Hi Jeff

Thanks for the advice. I guess what you are saying is it is very very difficult to date Chinese rugs!

If I were to tell you that the Ningxia rug I showed in the other thread (one with Khotan border) was 4 ply cotton warp - handspun in my opinion but that is a guess, and based on the colours and design you see, how old would you estimate it to be? I know its hard to do without handling the piece (it is wafer thin) but would you take a stab?

A - 1900 +
B - 1850 - 1900
C - 1800 - 1850
D - pre 1800

It matters not to me but I'd be interested to know what others think. (It was sold as late 18C/early 19C, to which I usually add a few decades...;-)

Regards
Richard

Jeff Sun

Richard,

My guess is 20th century, (because, as I said, I am an "age skeptic") although your own estimation of mid 19th century is also possible.

4ply says machine spun to me and therefore 1850+, but like you said, you have to see it to really know.

Anyway you cut it, it is very beautiful. Enjoy.

richard tomlinson

Hi Jeff

It's quite refreshing to have someone challenge dating as you do.

One has to wonder at the dating SO many dealers place on their rugs, given these same people are supposedly the knowledgeable folk. Then again, I guess their theory is "Prove me wrong". And we have the collectors who want to believe as well, so it's a perfect match :-)

Regards
Richard

Steve Price

Hi Richard

Many dealers are extremely knowledgeable, but conventional wisdom about age attribution is often not much more than marketplace folklore that has become accepted through repetition.

Regards

Steve Price

richard tomlinson

Hi Steve

I'm sorry but I don't get your point. Who is responsible for 'conventional wisdom'?

What is the relationship between dealers and conventional wisdom?

Regards
Richard

Steve Price

Hi Richard

What I mean by "conventional wisdom" is the stuff you'll find in books about rugs. Schurmann's book on Caucasian rugs, for example, is often very specific about geographic and age attributions. It is the source of much of what got published on the subject later and of much of what dealers and collectors came to believe to be true. The information gained credence with repetition.

Where did Schurmann get the information in his book? I don't really know, maybe someone else does. My guess is that he picked a lot of it up in the bazaars (he was a dealer who traveled to western and central Asia to buy). Some is probably correct. The real problem is knowing which specifics are truth and which are fables.

Regards

Steve Price

Marla Mallett

I've noticed an interesting shift in marketplace dating practices over the past few years. Respectable Turkish dealers, with few exceptions, now seem to be revising their estimates of ages downward. A rug or kilim that five years ago would have been automatically called "late 19th century" is now more typically called "70 or 80 years old." And a piece that before would have been called "mid-19th century" is now being rather enthusiastically called "over 100 year old!" Istanbul dealers who add 25 or 50 years to these estimates are now ridiculed by the rest. It's definitely not cool to be exaggerating these things. Simultaneously, the reverse seems to be happening with European and North American dealers, and their pieces are aging at an incredibly rapid rate!

Best wishes,
Marla

Steve Price

Hi Marla

That's a great demonstration of the uncertainty of age attributions. I'm always amused by heated debate and criticism when the issue is a matter of plus or minus 50 years in pieces that predate the 20th century, especially when the criteria seem to be ad hoc.

Regards

Steve Price

Jeff Sun

I'm widening this conversation out a bit into a bit about buying/selling/negotiating. I am sure if I am being too frank or if it is too off topic, Steve will stop me.

I have to say, one of the refreshing things about buying rugs in China is that there is much less song and dance.

1. No parade of carpets handled gingerly like they are the Shroud of Turin.
2. No endless cups of apple tea to put pressure on your bladder and negotiating prowess.
3. No calling a moth eaten rag "Full pile".
4. No "Special" rugs.

Maybe this is because in China, rugs rank way, way behind other antique items like porcelain, jade, water colors, calligraphy, furniture and wood carvings.

Sure, dealers may try and sell you a line about the rug...one dealer I frequented try to tell me his pillar rug was spirited out of the Potala during the cultural revolution and never returned...and it was 400 years old. It was a magnificent rug, better than any I have seen in a book or museum...but c'mon! In this case, I actually think he believed the tall tale.

But more likely, dealers just try and sell you on a super high price. Who can blame them?

Most of the dealers I have bought from will discuss age in only the most general terms "About 100 years" or "maybe 80 years old". After buying a few rugs, the negotiations become much more frank: "I have an 80 year old saddle rug which you might like. (with a sane price)"

This is the kind of talk I can trust.

-Tell me what you know.
-Not what you don't.
-Don't exaggerate. If you do, I won't be back.
-Don't name a crazy price. The dealer I bought the most rugs from (and continue to buy from and send friends to) was the one who didn't try to con me the first time I walked into his shop...

...and speaking of Dragon Claws, this is what I walked out with that day:

Marvin Amstey

Those sound like good general rules that most of us (should) follow. I hope the dealers are reading this.
As long as you showed a well-done Tibetan saddle, I'll add two more:



Click on each image and they will enlarge.

Jeff Sun

Richard-

I asked my local expert what he thought about the "Toes" issue. He said he'd get back to us. It may be a while.



BTW: Marvin, very nice saddle rugs. Did you acquire them in China or elsewhere?

Marvin Amstey

Hi Jeff,
One came from a dealer who had been in Japan at the time and is now back in the US; the other from an auction in the US.

That's a very nice pillar carpet!

Here is a modern 'Tibetan rug', i.e. Tibetan weave, from Nepal that I had made to use on the floor:


Click on the rug to enlarge it.

Jeff Sun

Nice stuff Marvin!

The pillar rug my "expert" son is examining is from Ningxia.

No more than 30 years old is my guess. The wool is wondrously lustrous, probably due to a high hair content. It would be almost perfect except fugitive red which has faded to pink in most places and basically washed out of the top end decoration. Just the same, nobody seems to notice these things. But one must wonder....red is a fairly common color in China being associated with so many auspicious things, yet red is comparatively rare in Chinese rugs and often quite problematic. (Comparatively to say Turkman rugs) You have to wonder why it has not been mastered long ago.

I very much like your Tibetan "Culture" rug. Was the hansi slogan and the stamps taken from somewhere or are they original for the rug?

Pierre Galafassi

Indeed Jeff, yours is an interesting question!
There is hardly any doubt that old China knew at least two high quality natural reds suitable for carpets: the insect dye lac and (several botanic varieties of) madder. And more good dyes could have easily been imported by chinese fleets calling to indonesian, indian or japanese ports.
The relative rarity of reds,especially good ones, in their antique rugs is puzzling. Even more so if we accept the common theory that most chinese rugs were actually woven by ethnic Turks in western China.

Best regards
Pierre

Jeff Sun

While some are woven by Uyghurs, Khirgiz and Kazaks for sure, most are not.

Rugs from Ningxia and Baotao tend to be woven by the native Mongols. Of course, rugs from Beijing, Shanghai, and Tianjin in the local styles and deco styles were mostly woven by ethnic Han Chinese.

Whatever the case of ethnicity...nobody would appear to have mastered the dying of red, so for sure they are not using the same materials or processes one might encounter in Turkestan.

Might it have to do with the type of wool? As I have said before on this board...I am not really a "dye guy".

Pierre Galafassi

Hi Jeff,
Do you think that a high percentage of extant pre-1860 chinese rugs feature a weak red?
Or could it be that only post-1860 rugs showed this problem?
A quick shift by chinese weavers to early synthetic dyes could then be the root cause.
Regards
Pierre
PS 1: Authors mention the use by old Tibetan and Chinese weavers of a (beautiful) red dye extracted from Carthamus tinctorius (safflower). This dye has poor lightfastness. I am not sure about its wet-fastness (running), but it must be quite inferior to the standard achieved with madder/alum.
PS 2: Chinese dyers have proven in many other cases their mastery of the dyeing technology. One brilliant example is "Lo Kao" a beautiful light-and wet-fast emerald green for silk, cotton and wool, of which modern science has yet to find the secret. I find it hard to believe that they did not master the simple technology of madder- or lac mordant dyeing.

Jeff Sun

Possible, of course. Although I'd be lying if I said I had seen so many pre-1860 rugs that I could vouch for that.

But consider Gordon Leitch who was writing in 1928 bemoaned the damage that synthetic dyes had caused to the Chinese rug industry because they were mis-applied. ie: Dyes meant for silk or cotton were used on wool. The practices that he discusses were current in the first 3rd of the twentieth century.

He also says that among those weavers using vegetable dyes red was obtained from madder....which you'd think would be straight forward enough.

Nonetheless, the pillar rug in my photo, probably dates from around 1980. One would think that by that time, no matter what dye type was being used, whether vegetal or synthetic, a nice red should be achieve-able.

Another theory I have (with not chemistry to base it on), is that the red was somehow reactive with the 20 some years of incense smoke and burning yak butter that it came into contact with. The air in Buddhist temples is saturated with these things.

Possible?

Pierre Galafassi

Hi Jeff,
It is possible but unlikely. To my knowledge only two modern blue chromophores have ever shown some problems when exposed to highly polluted air (engine exhaust gas). No red.

QUOTE:
Might it have to do with the type of wool?

No, the type of wool cannot be made responsible for it.

Could it be that a fugitive red dye is purposely selected and used as a symbol of our short stay on this planet for example? Older Chinese and Tibetan rugs were sometimes full of symbolic motifs.
Best
Pierre

Jeff Sun

Well, anything COULD be, but the most likely reason is still my first thought: The red dye job was not very good. I'll have to roll this one out for some pictures.