March 7th, 2010, 04:13 PM   1
Rich Larkin
Members

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 33
Metamery...

Hi Pierre,

I noted your comment below with interest in the C-14 thread.

Quote:
Lack of color constancy inevitably causes a third phenomenon which we call "metamery":
For example if the red shade of rug A has been dyed with madder and the red in rug B has been dyed with a different recipe of dyes (for example chrome dyes), but imitating exactly the red shade of rug A (as judged under daylight), when one looks at these two rugs under a different light source (say artificial light) there will frequently be a significant difference between the two reds. This might have been the case of the carpets discussed in the older post you mentioned.
I'm sure Steve would have me hunted down, and rightly so, if I tried to branch out within that thread. However, I'm interested in the phenomenon, particularly the aspect of it that would produce differing results if yarns having the same color but different dye types would be viewed under varying light sources. Could you comment on it a little more? Excuse me if you covered the matter in your excellent salon.

Rich Larkin
March 7th, 2010, 05:02 PM  2
Pierre Galafassi
Members

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 20

Hi Rich,
To answer your question about color constancy and metamery I will need a few slides and a little time (*), please allow for a couple of days since I am already booked solid tomorrow.
We will meet here on Tuesday (if Steve gives his fatherly blessing).
Best regards
Pierre
(*) Paraphrasing a famous German, I could rather quickly write a long and perfectly obscure post on this topic, but to make it short and with a minimum of funny looking words takes longer.
March 9th, 2010, 07:49 AM   3
Pierre Galafassi
Members

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 20

Hi Rich,
Chose promise, chose due!
As you know, daylight, which our brain interprets as colorless, actually contains the whole spectrum of visible radiations between (roughly) wavelengths 390 nm and 700 nm (Fig 1)

When daylight hits our favorite Ersari, its red dye absorbs selectively some wavelengths around 500 nm (Fig 2).

The reflected light hitting our eye will not contain these absorbed wave lengths and our brain will inform us that what we are looking at is red.(Fig 3)


It is obvious that if a different light hits the rug, for example a much bluer or much redder one, this will impact both the absorbed and the reflected lights and therefore modify our perception of the color of the rug (Photoshop docet).

Our eyes & brains interpret several distributions of visible wavelengths (various lights), as being colorless. We usually only differentiate them as being «warmer» or «colder»
The illustrations show but two of them, the «standard daylight» (Fig 4) and the «cool white fluorescent light» (Fig 5).


We encounter many other colorless lights in our daily life. The wavelength spectrum of a sunny day differs from the one of a foggy day, bulb light differs from white neon light etc. Since different colorless lights can have quite different wavelength distribution it is rather logical that looking at a colored material under such different lights will modify our perception of its shade.

Now comes an important and perhaps not obvious point: Just as various lights with significant different spectral distributions seem «white» or colorless to us, textiles dyed with different dye mixes, showing small, but significant differences in their reflectance curves, can still be judged as having the same color by our imperfect eye & brain tool, at least under a given light source.

For example the two brown textiles below (Fig 6) have very similar shades under shop window light, despite significantly different reflectance curves (Fig 7).


If we now look at our two brown textiles under daylight the shades of both samples change, brown 1 goes massively greener and brown 2 a trifle redder. The difference of shade between the two textiles is spectacular (Fig.8).


We say that these two colored textile samples are strongly «metameric».

If you compare fig. 6 and 8 again, you may notice that both samples show a change of shade, when switching to the second light source. Both samples lack of what we call in our awful jargon «color constancy». However, one sample (brown 1) shows a disgusting lack of color constancy, while the other (brown 2) can boast of a pretty decent one.

Modern spectrophotometers can rate color-constancy and predict metamery between samples under a number of standard lights.

Last but not least: The reflectance curves depend of course on the dyes used in the dyeing recipe.(Fig 9)

Lousy brown 1 has been dyed using a trichromy (a mix of three dyes) with a golden yellow, a red and a blue dye.
Decent brown 2 has been made using a trichromy with a lemon yellow, a pink and the same blue dye.


Let us take a fully hypothetical rug example:
Rug 1 contains a brown shade obtained by over-dyeing brownish wool with a bit of madder
Rug 2 has a very similar brown shade, as judged under daylight, but the dyer has started from a greyish wool, dyed it with indigo and over-dyed it with some madder and zalil.
The reflectance curves of these two brown wool yarns will probably be somewhat different and it is likely that under artificial light, each of these shades will change (more or less depending on the color-constancy of each brown). If these shade changes go in opposite directions (one getting redder, the other greener for example) we will have a large metamery, a more limited metamery will be observed if both browns drift in the same direction (both toward red for example).

How clear have I been, Rich? About as much as the Amu darya in spring, I guess.
Steve, is there a prize for the longest and most boring post in Turkotek history?

Best regards
Pierre
March 9th, 2010, 08:39 AM   4
Filiberto Boncompagni
Administrator

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Cyprus
Posts: 21

Hi Pierre,

For me it’s clear and interesting: during my past of painting restorer I had to fight frequently with the darned phenomenon. I knew the enemy by sight, not by its name. Now I do, merci.
Regards,

Filiberto
March 9th, 2010, 09:50 AM  5
Steve Price
Administrator

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 69

Hi Pierre

Steve, is there a prize for the longest and most boring post in Turkotek history?

Annually. But the competition is fierce, and you're not even close to the top.

Regards

Steve Price
March 9th, 2010, 05:40 PM  6
Joel Greifinger
Members

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 22
Utter clarity

Hi Pierre,

As someone who attempts to explain the psychology of vision to students every year, please let me echo Filiberto, thank you.
Long and boring????

Joel Greifinger
March 11th, 2010, 08:04 AM   7
Rich Larkin
Members

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 33

Hi Pierre,

You don't have a chance at the "boring post" award, but you may be up for the MVP. Thanks for the very thorough and interesting explanation, which I will be rereading several times due to a congenital condition. The demonstration of the change in the brown thumbs is arresting. It makes me wonder whether it might not be possible to develop a series of controlled tests by which the behavior of dyes in response to various light sources could be observed in order to make judgments about the dyes. Perhaps there would be too many variables for that to become a reliable means of testing.

Rich Larkin
March 11th, 2010, 10:08 AM   8
Pierre Galafassi
Members

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 20

Hi Rich,

Your intuition about a possible use of color constancy and metamery to identify dyes is indeed a credible hypothesis (the best proof is that I share your opinion). And so is your second intuition of the day ( ) about where the limit of such a new method could be found.

And don't tell me that you did not even remotely think about a way to separate synthetic dyes from natural ones on rugs, eh!

One can reasonably expect that the 3 to 5 single natural dyes which lend their coloration to madder (for example), have quite similar light absorption spectra, for sure they are all red dyes and their shades are not so far away from each other, with alum.
When matching a madder color with synthetic dyes, one will mostly use a di-chromy (two dyes) which consists of a neutral- or slightly bluish red and an orange, with perhaps a trace of a third dye. The peaks of absorption are likely to be quite distinct.
There is therefore a fair chance that the two recipes will have different color constancy ratings.
(I would expect that madder would have a "flatter maximum" of the absorption curve, while the di-chromy of 1:1 Cr dyes might feature two tinny peaks).

If this primary hypothesis could be proven right in the lab, then there would be enough incentive for doing more extensive lab work, with calibrations of typical natural rug shades, dyed with the handful of natural dyes used for antique rugs and their matches with the few 1:1 chromium complex dyes which dominate the market since 1920/1930. This would be large work but perhaps still reasonable.
Assuming this second phase to be successful too, a hand held spectrophotometer, equipped with the (rather complex) software making measurement of color constancy possible and with the results of the calibration in its memory, could indeed be a wonderful tool to detect the modern "loustics" who sell pseudo-natural rugs, dyed with 1/1 chromium dyes.
However, an extension of this idea to all synthetic dyes is impossible IMHO. From 1860 to 1920, hundreds of different wool dyes, with different absorption spectra were created. The calibration lab work would be overwhelming and, besides, there are no samples anymore of most of these ancestors.

Then, as usual, when one invents a better shield it does not take long for someone to invent a better offensive weapon making the shield obsolete:
A really competent colorist using modern spectrophotometers can calculate a slightly more complex dye recipe (3-4 synthetic dyes) which matches the natural dye, color constancy included.

The concept has been discussed with a reputed natural dyes expert. Let's cross fingers.
I hope this post won't be read by too many illuminated ruggies though, since a whole generation of laser-eyed experts could mushroom.

Best regards
Pierre