Posted by Louis Dubreuil on 03-04-2005 12:37 PM:

haç gul continuation

Salut à tous

One of the last question on hash gul subject was about the meaning of the term "hash gul". One trail was to know how Uwe Jourdan wrote it in the german issue of his book. I have got the information from a german Ebay friend. In german text Jourdan uses the word "hatsch gul". This word means nothing in german. This is consequently a phonetic transposition from turkmen or turkish language. Hash is also a phonetic transposition from german to english. As my correspondent noticed "hatsch" seams very near of "hatschlu", european transposition for the cross design in ensis. I have made some search on the net and I have found that english "cross" = turkish "haç". "ç "is phonetic equivalent of "sh".
The design of this gul shows a cross. So it is not impossible that the Jourdan appellation of "hash gul" or "hatsch gul" could be simply the transposition of "haç gul" = "cross gul".

It would be fine if some turkish speaking turkoteker could confirm or develop this trail.

Meilleures salutations à tous

Louis Dubreuil

Posted by Cevat Kanig on 03-04-2005 03:12 PM:

Hi Louis,

In Turkish Alfabet ç : ch.
Has : Pure
in Turkish Alfafet : sh ,never write together


Cevat Kanig

Posted by Ali R.Tuna on 03-04-2005 03:14 PM:

Cher Louis,
Yes , I confirm that the word "hac" (with a c cedille) reads "hutch" phonetically in english , and means "cross".
A derivative word is "hacli" read "hutch-lou" , meaning "with a cross". Hence the name of the engsis with a cross design .

The concept of the cross in Central Asian Turkish tradition indicated the four directions of the world/universe. Usually the world would be represented with the individual standing in the middle of the cross , looking southwards.
In many old Turkic sources , North is the "back" , south is "front " , east is "left" and west is "right".
So , this is how the "hac" /cross connects with the old Turkish tradition and appears on several carpets both Turkmen and Anatolian.

Meilleures salutations

Posted by Steve Price on 03-04-2005 03:33 PM:

Hi Ali and Louis

Sort of knocks a hole in Gantzhorn's "if a rug has a motif that could be a cross, it must be Armenian" line of thinking, doesn't it?

The saddest moment of all: when a beautiful hypothesis comes face to face with an ugly fact.


Steve Price

Posted by Filiberto Boncompagni on 03-04-2005 04:07 PM:

How odd…

Yes , I confirm that the word "hac" (with a c cedille) reads "hutch" phonetically in english , and means "cross".

Do you remember the symbols in John’s "Borchalou" Kazak?

I wrote: They could be simply a ‘Tree of Life” motif, or they could derive from sculpted medieval Armenian crosses - the khach'k'ars, from the word for cross (khach') and stone (k'ar)
I bet "hac" and “khach” must be pretty close – phonetically, at least.



Posted by Unregistered on 03-05-2005 06:44 AM:

Dear Steve,
Yes. The ganzthornian argument of linking all crosses (even if they are fabricated by forced symmetry) to Armenian manufacture is a logic that is not sound , but works with "novice" people in the field.
This extreme polarized logic also occults the real knowledge about how to tell the Armenian weavings of Anatolia from others . Armenians excelled in most crafts and they also wove carpets which are known to be of excellent quality.
But they have used the materials and designs found in their environment , rather as cottage or town work . It is the same today in societies with diverse ethnic backgrounds , people will use the popular designs and themes that are in fashion due to the economical relaities of their time (especially pile carpets have always been a trade item ).

Dear Filiberto,
I am not sure about the origins of the word katch'kar but it is a word known in Anatolia , there is a mountain range existing with that name-could have . I can not make any argument about the real provenance motifs on the bordjalou , it might be a tree of life , or originated from another source. This said , I believe that the sculpted Armenian crosses were crosses with rather equal branches, the doble cross being the Croix de Lorraine in France. However, on most Bordjalous in the literature , the motif has 3-4 levels of "branches".

Posted by Steve Price on 03-05-2005 07:16 AM:

Hi Ali

Please, when you see the word "unregistered" in the user name field as you are composing a post, overwrite it with your own name. That way, your name will appear in the header.


Steve Price

Posted by Itzhak Mordekhai on 03-05-2005 10:33 AM:

Hi all,

The word "hash" or "hasht" in the Persian and Tadjik languages stand for "eight". Does this help the discussion in any way?



Posted by Itzhak Mordekhai on 03-05-2005 10:38 AM:

Hi all,

Sorry I've repeated myself twice, so I've erased the second message.



Posted by Filiberto Boncompagni on 03-05-2005 11:10 AM:

Hi Ali,

Well, khach'k'ar is Armenian - considering it was the language in the region since the 7th century BC, if Armenians say it’s an Armenian word, I have little reasons to doubt it.
Just in case, I do not think they borrowed it from Turkic invaders: this word is the definition of the very symbol of Christianity and Armenians were converted by 400 AD…
It’s possible that “Khach” has roots in older Indo-European languages, though.
Armenian has close ties with Persian, for example: see last paragraph of the following quotations from the Encyclopedia Britannica.

Armenian was introduced into the mountainous Transcaucasian region (called Greater Armenia by the Greek historians) by invaders coming from the northern Balkans, probably in the latter part of the 2nd millennium BC. These invaders occupied the region on the shores of Lake Van that had previously been the site of the ancient Urartean kingdom. By the 7th century BC the Armenian language seems to have replaced the tongues of the native population.

After the introduction of Christianity to Armenia about AD 400, the language began to be written down; an alphabet of 36 letters was invented, according to tradition, by Mesrop Mashtots. (Two letters were added later.) Admirably suited to the phonology of Armenian, it is still used in various forms by Armenians all over the world.

When the scientific study of Armenian started in the 19th century, the language was considered an Iranian dialect, a mistake easily explained by the vast number of Iranian loanwords in the vocabulary. Subsequent studies, however, have convincingly shown Armenian to be an independent member of the Indo-European language family. According to the Greek historian Herodotus, Armenian was a variety of Phrygian, a tongue presumed to be Indo-European. What little is known of the latter is insufficient to support or confirm such a claim.



Posted by Louis Dubreuil on 03-06-2005 01:26 PM:

Haç again

dear Filiberto

I one of your posts of the last month you have shown drawings of coins with a design of a cross that seemed to be near of the cross of the haç gul ( a cross with triangles at the ends or the arms). Could you put it back here with some explanations about the origin of this coin ?

Meilleures salutations


Posted by Filiberto Boncompagni on 03-06-2005 02:11 PM:


And this is where I found it:



Posted by Cevat Kanig on 03-06-2005 02:35 PM:

Hi to All,

Below is Kariye Church in Istanbul,Originally built in the 4th century as the 'Church of the Holy Savior Outside the Walls' or 'in the Country' (chora), it was indeed outside the walls built by Constantine the Great.
The church was enclosed within the walls built by the Emperor Theodosius II in 413.

Please look at the bible that Jesus is holding.

Is that the Hash gul ?


Cevat Kanig

Posted by Filiberto Boncompagni on 03-06-2005 02:43 PM:

It has to be said that the Flag of the “Serenissima Repubblica di Genova” from 1218-1797 was a red cross on a white field… St. George’s cross, to be exact.
I guess that is the origin of the cross on the coin, being minted by a Genoese colony.


Return to Page 1  Return to Page 2