haç gul continuation
Salut à tous
One of the last question on hash gul subject was about
the meaning of the term "hash gul". One trail was to know how Uwe Jourdan wrote
it in the german issue of his book. I have got the information from a german
Ebay friend. In german text Jourdan uses the word "hatsch gul". This word means
nothing in german. This is consequently a phonetic transposition from turkmen or
turkish language. Hash is also a phonetic transposition from german to english.
As my correspondent noticed "hatsch" seams very near of "hatschlu", european
transposition for the cross design in ensis. I have made some search on the net
and I have found that english "cross" = turkish "haç". "ç "is phonetic
equivalent of "sh".
The design of this gul shows a cross. So it is not
impossible that the Jourdan appellation of "hash gul" or "hatsch gul" could be
simply the transposition of "haç gul" = "cross gul".
It would be fine if
some turkish speaking turkoteker could confirm or develop this
trail.
Meilleures salutations à tous
Louis Dubreuil
Hi Louis,
In Turkish Alfabet ç : ch.
Has : Pure
in Turkish
Alfafet : sh ,never write together
Regards.
__________________
Cevat
Kanig
Cher Louis,
Bonsoir
Yes , I confirm that the word "hac" (with a c
cedille) reads "hutch" phonetically in english , and means "cross".
A
derivative word is "hacli" read "hutch-lou" , meaning "with a cross". Hence the
name of the engsis with a cross design .
The concept of the cross in
Central Asian Turkish tradition indicated the four directions of the
world/universe. Usually the world would be represented with the individual
standing in the middle of the cross , looking southwards.
In many old Turkic
sources , North is the "back" , south is "front " , east is "left" and west is
"right".
So , this is how the "hac" /cross connects with the old Turkish
tradition and appears on several carpets both Turkmen and
Anatolian.
Meilleures salutations
Ali
Hi Ali and Louis
Sort of knocks a hole in Gantzhorn's "if a rug has a
motif that could be a cross, it must be Armenian" line of thinking, doesn't
it?
The saddest moment of all: when a beautiful hypothesis comes face to
face with an ugly fact.
Regards
Steve Price
How odd…
quote:
Yes , I confirm that the word "hac" (with a c cedille) reads "hutch" phonetically in english , and means "cross".
Dear Steve,
Yes. The ganzthornian argument of linking all crosses (even
if they are fabricated by forced symmetry) to Armenian manufacture is a logic
that is not sound , but works with "novice" people in the field.
This extreme
polarized logic also occults the real knowledge about how to tell the Armenian
weavings of Anatolia from others . Armenians excelled in most crafts and they
also wove carpets which are known to be of excellent quality.
But they have
used the materials and designs found in their environment , rather as cottage or
town work . It is the same today in societies with diverse ethnic backgrounds ,
people will use the popular designs and themes that are in fashion due to the
economical relaities of their time (especially pile carpets have always been a
trade item ).
Dear Filiberto,
I am not sure about the origins of the
word katch'kar but it is a word known in Anatolia , there is a mountain range
existing with that name-could have . I can not make any argument about the real
provenance motifs on the bordjalou , it might be a tree of life , or originated
from another source. This said , I believe that the sculpted Armenian crosses
were crosses with rather equal branches, the doble cross being the Croix de
Lorraine in France. However, on most Bordjalous in the literature , the motif
has 3-4 levels of "branches".
Ali
Hi Ali
Please, when you see the word "unregistered" in the user name
field as you are composing a post, overwrite it with your own name. That way,
your name will appear in the header.
Thanks
Steve Price
Hi all,
The word "hash" or "hasht" in the Persian and Tadjik languages
stand for "eight". Does this help the discussion in any
way?
Regards,
Itzhak
Hi all,
Sorry I've repeated myself twice, so I've erased the second
message.
Regards,
Itzhak
Hi Ali,
Well, khach'k'ar is Armenian - considering it was the language
in the region since the 7th century BC, if Armenians say it’s an Armenian word,
I have little reasons to doubt it.
Just in case, I do not think they
borrowed it from Turkic invaders: this word is the definition of the very symbol
of Christianity and Armenians were converted by 400 AD…
It’s possible that
“Khach” has roots in older Indo-European languages, though.
Armenian has
close ties with Persian, for example: see last paragraph of the following
quotations from the Encyclopedia Britannica.
Armenian was introduced
into the mountainous Transcaucasian region (called Greater Armenia by the Greek
historians) by invaders coming from the northern Balkans, probably in the latter
part of the 2nd millennium BC. These invaders occupied the region on the shores
of Lake Van that had previously been the site of the ancient Urartean kingdom.
By the 7th century BC the Armenian language seems to have replaced the tongues
of the native population.
…
After the introduction of Christianity to
Armenia about AD 400, the language began to be written down; an alphabet of 36
letters was invented, according to tradition, by Mesrop Mashtots. (Two letters
were added later.) Admirably suited to the phonology of Armenian, it is still
used in various forms by Armenians all over the world.
…
When the
scientific study of Armenian started in the 19th century, the language was
considered an Iranian dialect, a mistake easily explained by the vast number of
Iranian loanwords in the vocabulary. Subsequent studies, however, have
convincingly shown Armenian to be an independent member of the Indo-European
language family. According to the Greek historian Herodotus, Armenian was a
variety of Phrygian, a tongue presumed to be Indo-European. What little is known
of the latter is insufficient to support or confirm such a
claim.
Regards,
Filiberto
Haç again
dear Filiberto
I one of your posts of the last month you have shown
drawings of coins with a design of a cross that seemed to be near of the cross
of the haç gul ( a cross with triangles at the ends or the arms). Could you put
it back here with some explanations about the origin of this coin
?
Meilleures salutations
Louis
Sure.Voila’
And this is where I found it:
http://www.onsnumis.org/articles/tatar-genoese.shtml
Regards,
Filiberto
Hi to All,
Below is Kariye Church in Istanbul,Originally built in the
4th century as the 'Church of the Holy Savior Outside the Walls' or 'in the
Country' (chora), it was indeed outside the walls built by Constantine the
Great.
The church was enclosed within the walls built by the Emperor
Theodosius II in 413.
Please look at
the bible that Jesus is holding.
Is that the Hash
gul ?
Regards.
__________________
Cevat
Kanig
It has to be said that the Flag of the “Serenissima Repubblica di Genova”
from 1218-1797 was a red cross on a white field… St. George’s cross, to be
exact.
I guess that is the origin of the cross on the coin, being minted by
a Genoese colony.
Regards,
Filiberto