Paul Smith

While I think I could distinguish Yomud from Tekke pile weaving most of the time, I have had a harder time sorting out various Turkmen brocade flatweave groups. These saddlebags were actually sold as "Malatya" but I feel pretty confident that they are Turkmen. At the moment I think they are Yomud, but I have no real idea, and wondered if someone here might help me sort that out...





The white is cotton, which is very fragile. These things wouldn't last 20 minutes on a horse without destroying the brocade, which makes me assume that this was made for some entirely different purpose. If I saw these colors on a pile piece I would think it was pretty old, 19th-century, but the condition here is near mint.



Paul

Rich Larkin

Hi Paul,

Elegant set. Following on your curiosity about how old this item can be in view of its condition, I often wonder whether the trimmings and tassels one occasionally finds on such pieces are later additions, put on to "renovate" pieces in good basic condition. Do yuo feel the materials making up the trimmings on yours are the same as the rest of it?

BTW, I notice the flight pattern of the jets in the bottom field of your image is more compact than the other side. Do you make anything of that?

Rich Larkin

Chuck Wagner

Hi Paul,

Here's a similar piece that I consider to be Yomud work (it was sold as such). I also consider it an older piece, probably 1900-1920's given the condition and colors. This was shown in a salon several years ago.












Regards
Chuck Wagner

Paul Smith

Hi Rich--

The tassels and whatnot are the same stuff, as near as I can tell. The white cotton appears to be handspun in the doodads and the brocading and is similarly fragile everywhere. The red in the tassel ends (it looks a little hot in these images, but it doesn't have that appearance in person) is the same as in the selvages and on the brocade on the bottom of the bag. I think it is a distinct red from the background red color. With those, the orange color, and the lovely purple-red back, there are four reds in this thing. In some sort of reverse-psychology rug crisis, the condition of this item both thrilled me and that made me suspect, but I figured that copying Turkmen items like this wouldn't make sense, and the seller was calling it Malatya anyway.

I also have wondered about the significance of the different readings of the field design in the two panels. Applying what I've learned in this Salon on brocade, it would seem that the weaver could add the brocade more freely to the kilim than in those methods where it was worked in as the rest of the textile was being woven (this weaving is otherwise very regular and precise). So the difference would seem in that sense to be more deliberate. The spacing changes across that one panel, being squished on the ends and more expanded in the middle. This does a little 3-D thing to my eyes, but there are probably a lot of explanations for how that could arise. I would think that the weaver could look at her other panel in something this size and match the pattern if she wanted to. Surely she could have stuck to the same proportions in that one panel, so I suspect there is intention in the shifting sizes. Maybe Mom wove the regular one, and her daughter got a little rebellious in her panel. Surely shamans were involved.

Hi Chuck--

Our bags certainly seem to be related. I see several details that are identical in these weavings, so if yours is Yomud, then mine must also be. The selvages and brocading on the center panel seem to be the same pattern.

I recall a dealer making the case to me that these brocaded flatweaves were more valued in Turkmen culture than the pile weaving, but these sorts of brocades seem mostly to be attributed to the Yomud and Tekke. They must not have been for practical use, though I presume they were walking on those big "palas" brocaded kilims. It does appear that your bag got some actual use as a bag, though. I remember that Steve posted a thread years ago noting the interesting absence of really old Turkmen saddlebags of any sort, pile or flatweaves...if I remember right, the issue was left with a fair amount of mystery...

Paul

Steve Price

Hi Paul

There's not much published about Turkmen flatwoven bags, and not much on which to base tribal attribution except color. I don't recall seeing any with the strong reds I associate with Tekke work; they all seem to be brownish red or have a sort of orange cast. Closest things to that are Ersari and Yomud groups. Those are also the weavers of the most numerous Turkmen pile bags, by a wide margin. For these reasons, I think it's reasonable to default to Yomud/Ersari when trying to assign a tribal origin to the flatwoven ones.

Regards

Steve Price

Paul Smith

Hi Steve--

It was the strong red of the background (the photo showing the whole piece is actually the most accurate on that) and the brighter one in brocade and tassels that made me think that it could be Tekke, but then I saw a few Yomud pile weavings with these sorts of reds and so my Tekke theory was discarded. However, the Yomud weavings I saw with these colors were from deep in the 19th century (I know, as much as we can say such things, but they were labelled as such). I confess to being relieved that no one has come on to say, "Oh, no, those are Malatya for sure, made in the 1960s from polyester," since I suspect these have some age and were somehow wrapped up and put away in a safe place a long time ago.

Paul

David R E Hunt

Hi Paul

I don't have a lot to contribute to this discussion, but I believe that this "Malatya" label may be of import. I suspect that these flat woven objects are the provenance of settled peoples, and as such a geographic label may be fitting.
There isn't a lot here, but there was a brief discussion earlier here on TT in regard to these flatweaves here
Of direct interest the following assertion: "These ethnic Turkmen identify themselves tribally as "Ataturkmen"and claimed to have no tradition of pile carpet weaving. In addition to palas flatweaves, they also make interesting felts for home"

Dave

Paul Smith

Hi Dave--

Is "Ataturkmen" distinct from "Ata Turkmen"? Not too long ago, I recall that there was a discussion here speculating about the weavings of the Ata Turkmen and in fact there was an image of someone who was supposed to be Ata weaving while sitting on a palas carpet, though these folks apparently did pile weaving as well. Here is a link to that discussion. I gather that they are related or are a subtribe of the Yomud, so that would explain the Yomud features of these brocaded bags. That they were settled makes sense, given the fragility of the textile, although the people in the link you posted seemed content to wear their rugs down to shreds.

Paul

Wayne Anderson

Paul et al

The bags shown above appear to me to be Yomud or Yomud group in design and coloring, and are both very nice examples. Here is an image from Kasraian and Arshi's The Turkmans of Iran showing very similar khorjin on horses crossing the Atrek River.

It is often difficult to distinguish between Tekke and Yomud pieces. This flatwoven torba from the State Russian Museum in The Turkmen Wedding by Boguslavskaya and Tsareva in Sovereign Carpets is attributed as Tekke Tribe(?) by the authors but was purchased by N.F. Burdukov in 1903 and originally described as "Flatwoven torba. Yomud manufacture."

I believe there are differences between khorjin made by members of the Yomud group of tribes and the Tekke. This image from Hodjamukhamedov and Dovadov Carpets and Carpet Products of Turkmenistan shows two khorjin, the upper Tekke and the lower Yomud. This Tekke has pile stripes but the one in O'Bannon's translation of Moshkova (figure 9) has stripes done in weft substitution. I believe most Yomud khorjin have a field design framed by a border and Tekke have stripes, either pile or flatwoven. The closures are different as well. As seen in the photo, Yomud (and most other Turkmen except Tekke) khorjins have multiple narrow but tall closure loops while Tekke khorjin have wider flatter closure loops like those found on chuval.

You joked about your bag being made of polyester. I do not believe yours is but here is one of mine that is. The white is some sort of synthetic fiber. I am not sure which synthetic it is as I have enough trouble telling natural fibers apart.

Wayne

David R E Hunt

Hi Paul

Possession may be 9/10 of the law, as the saying goes, but it doesn't substantiate provenance. I suspect, for whatever it's worth, that these flat weaves have a long history of production. They seem so labor intensive,they must find their origins back in the day when labor was cheap (and/or people had a lot of free time on their hands) and materials free. Is the production of palas and flatwoven bags a rather specialized craft as well?



Hence, just because the woman depicted in the cited photo from your link is sitting on a palas doesen't necessairly mean that she (or her people) wove it. Likewise, just because the Ataturkmen cited in my link stated that they have no history of pile weaving, doesn't mean that the Ataturkmen (whom so ever they may be) as a whole have no hisory of pile weaving. I agree that the most likely Turkmen candidates for palas style manufacture are those of settled Yomud and Ersari, but I don't know this as a fact.

Is the production of these brocaded floor coverings limited to the Turkmen, in general? I suspect not, but I can't say. I know, I have provided more questions than answers, but such is mine in regard to these flat weaves.

Dave

P.S. I suspect these palas rather hard wearing floor coverings,more so than their appearence implies and as such their utility

Wayne Anderson

Dave

You are right that possession does not prove production, palas were objects of trade. There is some great information on line about Turkmen flatweaves in The Richard E. Wright Research Reports, especially Caspian Turkmens http://www.richardewright.com/0610_caspian_turkmens.html and Rugs of the Southern Rim http://www.richardewright.com/0909_SuthernRim.html. He gives production figures from the Russian and Soviet periods for flatwoven, pile and felt rugs and discusses the trade of these items. In Caspian Turkmens he even gives information about the Ata. There were palas made by the Tekke as well as the Yomud with production figures broken down between Merv and Askhabad. Bogolyubov also illustrates a palas made by the Goklen as well as ones by the Yomud and Tekke. I don't know of any brocaded palas made by the Ersari. I believe they made other types of flatwoven carpets but separating them from those made by others in the region is difficult.

Wayne

Chuck Wagner

Greetings gents,

Here's another example of Yomud flatweave products; a chuval with mixed techniques:









Also, just to note - palas motifs are also found on piled pieces. Are we certain the image depicts a woman sitting on a flatweave ?

Regards
Chuck Wagner

Paul Smith

Hi everyone--

I can accept that palas are tougher than they look; a friend of mine had one under his dining table for years, and while I would carefully lift my chair over the piece getting in and out, I saw lots of folks grind their chairs across the brocade with abandon. It held up surprisingly well.

I'm certain that would not be the case with my saddlebags. Besides the tender cotton shredding, those tassels would be floating down the river, were they on the crossing in Wayne's post. By the way, do the tassels have any practical function? I wondered if they went through the loops to secure the openings. Not that they would be much security in this particular case.

Was it common for Turkmen people to trade their weavings with other Turkmen? I understand that a great deal of Turkmen weavings of all types were sold to outsiders, and possibly a lot of very good pieces were made for sale, but I wonder how much of another tribe's work would be found in a Turkmen yurt. I suppose by the time that photo was taken there had been many, many changes for these people. I only repeated the information in the post; maybe it isn't a palas.

I have to say, that Yomud-to-Tekke torba from Boguslavskaya and Tsareva looks very nice. There appears to be a lot of silk in addition to the evidently luminous wool.

Paul

David R E Hunt

Hi Wayne

Thanks for the links, they make for some interesting reading. That the Yomud make these palas style brocades seems a forgone conclusion, and you seem to have uncovered some convincing evidence of Tekke production of same said goods. But how to distinguish Tekke from Yomud, and especially of these large palas? Is it possible that some of the hurdles we encounter in regard to tribal attribution of these bracade pieces might own to their origin as Kustar production? In short, were both the Yomud and Tekke producing these brocades in patterns and materials (colors) mandated by a central authority?

Paul- Turkmen love tassels, IMHO...

Chuck, I kinda like these flat weave bags, and just as with their pile woven brethren, they are not all created equal, color and drawing wise...

Dave

Patrick Weiler

Paul,
The tassels probably had numerous "purposes" including keeping evil away. And, they made quite the impression when the wearer was moving, be it horse, man or woman. I know some folks who passionately collect tassels and things with tassels on them.
As for putting your dining room table onto your saddlebags, I think you would need a rather small table.

Patrick Weiler

Wayne Anderson

Paul
Khorjins do seem to have been roughly used and often show wear. This is a Turkmen (?tribe) small khorjin that shows wear to both the cotton and wool brocade.
I think the tassels would be the first to go. Some khorjin do have cords which could have been used to close the bags. Steve Price wrote an article for Oriental Rug Review on closures but as I recall it delt with chuval type closures.
You are right about the torba from The State Russian Museum. It is descibed as having lots of silk.
Dave
I do not know of a way to distinguish palas of the different Turkmen tribes. Many were probably made for trade both before and after the Russians came. The ones from the the Yomud, Tekke and Goklen illustrated by Bogolyobuv possibly were made before the Russian conquest.
Chuck
The photo of the Ata women in Jon Thompson's book does appear to me when I look at it in the book to clearly show her sitting on a palas. The text does not state if she made it, bought it or stole it.
You have shown two great bags with good greens or green blues which I think are more common on Yomud group work than Tekke, particularly earlier examples.
Here is a photo from Michaud and Michaud's Caravans to Tartary showing an Afghanistan Turkmen and his khorjin and one of mine with a similar design.


Wayne

Chuck Wagner

Hi Wayne,

Here are a few images of very similar pieces that are included in a discussion thread from several years ago; these are from about halfway through the thread.

Here's the link:http://www.turkotek.com/misc_00075/windsors_bag.htm

This image was posted by Jack Williams - the gent at the upper right is holding a piece that is a lot like yours:



These three are from the thread as well; they're mine. It is my understanding that this one is Hazara. It is very similar to the bag under the sleeping gent's head... While rather different than yours in detail, it is still a little disconcerting to see that red Afghan Turkoman pile work on yours:



This is another from northern Afghanistan:



As I mentioned in the thread, this next one was

More like 3/5 through the thread mentioned above, I have posted several detailed closeups of these pieces.

Regards
Chuck Wagner

Wayne Anderson

Chuck
Thanks for the link.The bag in the photo with the sleeping man is I think more like the the bag I posted with the pile bottom stripe (which I think is Ersari-group) than your Hazara bag. Here are close-ups.


Your middle bag is very nice and appears to me to be Ersari. The stripe pattern is the same as one in this small bag which I believe to be Turkmen, probably Ersari.
I am intrigued by the design in pile at the bottom of your bag, I don't recall seeing it on another Turkmen piece.


To round out the discussion of the flatwoven khorjin of the major tribes here is an image from Moshkova of a Tekke flatwoven khorjin and one of mine that I believe to be Tekke.
Notice both have a different type of closure system than the Yomud and Ersari khorjin, with wider flatter loops.



Just to confuse things here is a bag that I do not think is Turkmen but which has the same stripe as your middle bag and my small bag. I purchased it in part because although it is entirely black and white it has a "stray" red.

Wayne

Chuck Wagner

Hi Wayne

Looking at the enlarged picture of the sleeping man, I can see you are quite correct - the pile is clearly visible now.

I agree that the motif in the piled area of the middle bag is not very common. I haven't thought about this detail in a long time, and need to do some searching, for analogs.

That's a very colorful piece shown in the image from Moshkova - quite striking - and I suppose not out of line with the age she suggests, the 1930's. Still, most early 20th century work isn't that "bright". Maybe my eyes are getting fooled by technology, but there seems to be a hint of yellow in the color palettte.

The back & white bag ? Yikes !! Goth Girl Weavers. Who knew ???

I don't know what to say - haven't seen anything quite like that before. Gut feeling is some manner of Kurd origin, but who knows...

Regards
Chuck Wagner

Wayne Anderson

Chuck et al
The Moshkova khorjin is described as in near perfect condition and was probably new when aquired. I think the white in it contributes to its brightness but it does have some yellow accents, here is a close up.


Here is a colorful khorjin sold to me as Tekke probably from mid-century, notice it has the closures that I think are common on Tekke khorjin.

Here is a colorful fragment that I believe is part of an older Ersari jollar (c.1900 seems to be the default date for older Turkmen flatweaves).

Wayne