Joel Greifinger

Hi Patrick,

Thanks for the clear exposition and illustration of some of the flatweave techniques we often encounter.

Here's a Persian flatweave in which I think the weft-faced plainweave is dovetailed (although I find that I have trouble visually distinguishing dovetailed from single interlocked weaves). It has wool wefts on cotton warps and measures 80" x 55", excluding the fringe.







While the stepped diamonds in the field show similarities to the double interlocked bag in the salon, I think this one was probably made by settled Bakhtiari weavers in Chahar Mahal and not migrating Lors. Despite a palette that seems to more resemble pieces made by the nomadic Lors of Bakhtiari ("light crimson, dark blue, green and white") rather than the bright, lively oranges and pinks that seem to characterize the Bakhtiari kilims of Chahar Mahal, the dovetailed structure seems to point to the latter group. While Tanavoli's assertion that "Double interlock gelims must be called a specialty of the Bakhtiari Lors of Khuzestan and not of Chahar Mahal" doesn't eliminate the possibility that they produced this dovetailed kilim, it seems likely to have been made in Chahar Mahal where dovetailed woven kilims seem to predominate.

On the other hand, perhaps I've misdiagnosed the weave as dovetailed and I need to start over.

Joel Greifinger

Patrick Weiler

Joel,

This lovely piece is most likely single-interlocked tapestry weave. The difference between this and dovetailed is that a single interlock weft links to another weft coming from the opposite direction. This occurs between warps.
Dovetailed tapestry wefts encircle a warp and return and wefts coming from the other direction also encircle the same warp. They do not link to each other.
Visually, the dovetailed transition occurs on a warp, so the sawtooth junction is "on top" of a warp, but the single-interlock junction happens in between warps, in the "valley" between warps.

Patrick Weiler

Chuck Wagner

Hi Joel, Pat,

Here's another Bakhtiari kilim that we've had for a while:




And here's a closeup, showing the dovetailing, and, the not dovetailing:



Marla, comments on the not-dovetailed angled wrap ?

Regards
Chuck Wagner

Marla Mallett

This is of course hard from photos, but to me, your piece looks interlocked, Chuck, and Joel's piece dovetailed. A closer detail of Joel's would help. Back when I was doing the book, I looked through a lot of South and Southwest Persian kilims before I even found one single-interlocked example to photograph. That was a surprise, and I'm guessing that the differences have probably not been accurately reported in the literature dealing with Iranian kilims. Thus I don't think we can say with confidence which structure was used where. Interlocking makes a flatter, more consistent surface, but is a little messier and harder to control than dovetailing. With either of these one can confirm what the construction is by probing with a heavy needle. We are unlikely to find both structures present in a single kilim.

Marla

Joel Greifinger

Here's a close-up:



Joel Greifinger

Patrick Weiler

Joel,

That is definitely closer but not closer definitively.
If you could hire some Lilliputs to get in there and tease the wefts apart it would help.
The single-interlock salt bag is nearly conclusively constructed in that fashion, but it takes an 8X loup to see closely enough and that leaves no room for the needle. Prying with a needle is dangerous, so thanks for "sticking" with it.
I have noticed in my own inspections that two hands are needed to pry the wefts and one or more to hold the textile, while at least one more is needed to hold and adjust the magnifying glass or loup.
And I am not handy to begin with.
If you are successful, we could re-name you Joel Gulliverfinger.

Patrick Weiler

Marla Mallett

Oh, Joel, your piece is so difficult to see clearly. In some places, one can swear it is dovetailed; in other areas one can't be sure. A couple of tips: With dovetailing, because twice as much yarn encircles the common warp between two color areas, a heavier vertical rib is formed. Sometimes this is clearly visible; sometimes not. Sometimes you can feel these thicker ribs as you run a finger across the surface horizontally.

Often a weaving is inconsistent toward the starting end of a kilim (either type) and as the weaver develops a rhythm in her work, the piece becomes more consistent and the dovetailing or interlocking more uniform. Thus it's more practical to examine a piece a ways into the field. Two weavers may work side-by-side on these kilims, so the piece may have a slightly different appearance on the left than on the right. Back and front may also differ; for example, the heavier ribs created by dovetailing may be more pronounced on one face than the other.

With interlocking, it takes a lot of skill to always place the point of interlock precisely between the two warps (warps that are jammed close together anyway), so one time the interlock may get pushed toward the front surface, another time toward the back. This point of interlock may be a bit to the left, or a bit to the right, as one yarn is tugged on a bit harder than the other. Thus it is normal to find inconsistencies in this weave.

When examining such a piece closely, it can help to fold it along the weft direction. By rolling it slightly, it should be possible to pry the yarns apart and see whether two colors alternate in crossing a single warp.

I'll send a couple photos to Steve which show a clearer and more precise example of dovetailing--with the same kind of design of stepped squares as Joel's. This particular piece is supposedly a Kurdish kilim from the Sauj Bulaq area.

Marla

Note: Here are the images:

Joel Greifinger

Hi Marla,

Thanks for the dovetail testing tips.

I tried running my finger horizontally across the points of juncture between colors. At many, the vertical rib you mention is clearly visible but, even where it isn't, you can feel it. I then tried the 'fold along the weft and roll' with a needle in the other hand. Even at junctures where only one of the colors is visible when flat, you can see the alternation of the two colors crossing each warp when you roll and poke.

It seems to be dovetailed. Now how do I manage to capture the evidence photographically?

Joel Greifinger

Joel Greifinger

Here's a shot of me doing the 'weft-roll'. Looks dovetailed, no?




Joel Greifinger

Patrick Weiler

Joel

The close-up photo seems to show that these wefts are linking to each other between warps, not on top of a warp, but the location is very close to an edge and is not entirely conclusive. Either you need to slice the weaving open with a box cutter to be sure, or take another picture in a different spot.
You may need a scanning-electron-microscope.
I will see if I can get a closer picture of my salt bag, too.

Patrick Weiler

Joel Greifinger

Hi Patrick,

Here are another couple of attempts to get a picture that will clarify the structure. I think that these are just about as definitive as the last try:






Still looks dovetailed to me.




Joel Greifinger

Patrick Weiler

Joel,

Some places it looks definitely dovetailed (picture number one) and some places it looks like the junction is between warps and that the opposing wefts narrow at the junction - possibly indicating that they are not wrapping around the warp but going through the incoming weft (picture 2). I think you can possibly tell if one of those wefts wraps around a warp or if it links with a weft of the other color by "probing" with a needle, as Marla has suggested. It can get rather messy, though.
I tried this with a thumbtack, but it is too short and squat.
With Marla's research showing only a single piece which was single-interlocked, the likelihood is that yours is dovetailed.

Patrick Weiler