Joel Greifinger

Hi all,

When I was a kid, I collected 45 RPM records. “Singles”, as they were known, had two songs , one on either side. The song on the ‘A’ side was generally your reason for buying the record. The ‘B’ side was usually forgettable or got neglected altogether. However, once in a long while, you would buy a “single’ and discover that the song on the ‘B’ side was the real gem. In even rarer and happier circumstances, the songs on both sides came to be enduring favorites. Some early Beatles singles made it into this category.

And, so with various sorts of bags and mafrashes. Once in a while you may acquire a bag that, in addition to the lure of the weaving on the front side (pile or flatweave), the flatwoven back is like the bonus track ‘B’ side, providing a keen additional jolt of pleasure (in the case of mafrashes, this would be the bottom side).

So, I wonder if folks might post some of their pieces where the flatwoven back (or bottom) provides a substantial share of the aesthetic charge.

To start off, here’s an Uzbek Tartari khorjin made in characteristic double-interlock tapestry and with a familiar field design. It has extremely soft wool.






The added kick for me is the back, with as much detail as the front:




Here's a detail (taken under different lighting conditions):




Anyone game to show off their back o' the bag?


Joel Greifinger

Steve Price

Hi Joel

This is a subject that's been dear to me for awhile. We did a Salon on bags with interesting backs about 12 years ago; you'll probably find it interesting. I'm anxious to see what our readers add here.

Regards

Steve Price

Patrick Weiler

Joel,

The back of that bag is very colorful. Usually the backs of bags are plain-weave or striped plain-weave.

Here is the back of a Qashqa'i bag with a couple of stepped diamonds:



This is the whole piece unfolded:



And relevant to the Salon, it is of the typical Qashqa'i slit-weave
tapestry:



It also happens to be very small:



And, no, it did not cost just a dollar.
There is also twining and the standard "Qashqa'i Frieze" of complementary-weft weave borders.

Patrick Weiler

Lloyd Kannenberg

Hi Joel and all,

The New England Rug Society (http://www.ne-rugsociety.org/) online exhibition "To Have and To Hold" shows a number of pieces that show interesting backs. Among others, Fig. 8a includes a Jaf Kurd back with slit tapestry and brocade work; Figs. 16 and 17 show the backs of two Azerbayjani khorjins; Fig. 23 shows the back of a Zakatala bag; and Fig. 39 includes the back of an Uzbek chanteh. There are others! It is true that most backs are plain or stripes, more or less colorful, but not a few are remarkably elaborate. A very interesting study, I think.

Best wishes all around,

Lloyd Kannenberg

Patrick Weiler

Joel,

When I was a kid, I collected coins and the backs of those were interesting also!
Lloyd, thanks for that reference to the NERS exhibition. All of them are interesting and this one is relevant to the salon.

And, speaking of backs, here is a Baluch (Timuri?) chanteh with a complicated back. The first photo is the front. Nothing unusual here:



This is the "front" of the back. It appears to have several weft-substitution bands in white/black at the top and bottom, red/aubergine in the middle and red/white/black at the very bottom. These narrow bands are separated by wide bands of what appears to be slit-weave tapestry in chevron-style.




And a closer view, showing what may be "two-color back-wrapped-and-bound" borders to the weft-substitution bands. The thick, dark-brown band near the top is the back side of the closure device loops.



And this is the "back" of the back, with the closure loops visible.



With this closer view:



This is where it gets interesting. What looks from the “front” of the back like slit-weave tapestry is very different from the “back” of the back. I am not sure what technique was used to create the "toothed" appearance of the zig-zag major designs. The very tips of the chevrons are slit-weave, but along the edges, the colors appear to interlock as they reverse direction.

It almost makes you not want to look too closely!

Patrick Weiler

Marla Mallett

Hi Pat,

That's a confusing one, for sure, but a good one to have brought up. On one of my website WOVEN STRUCTURES UPDATES pages I have illustrated this unique Baluch design feature--that actually is weft substitution. There I've shown it woven in two different ways, first with the wefts reversing after substituting for just a VERY short part of the pattern, and second, with the wefts floating from one pattern part to the other. It's here: www.marlamallett.com/up-three.htm.

Best,
Marla

Marla Mallett

...And another page that shows variations on Baluch weft-substitution details, including the wide chevrons: www.marlamallett.com/ef-weft-.htm. A slit tapestry example is compared.

Marla

Chuck Wagner

...one note.

Hi Pat,

Here's the back of one hanging on my study wall - another small bag (11 inches x 13 inches) - makes me wonder if sharing designs and techniques at the Friday Morning Stitch-n-Bitch session is a very old tradition...



Also, to keep things rolling, here are a couple more other Baluch pieces, with nicely finished back panel kilims:








The color of the wide dark panel on the last one is a natural brown wool - not so easy to judge without a closeup.

Regards
Chuck Wagner

Joel Greifinger

Hi all,

Since others aren't flocking to post their spectacular bag backs, I'll slip in a type that, while not unusual, I find quite pleasing.

Here are pics of the back of a Bakhtiari mixed-technique khorjin. I like the alternation between complementary weft-weave and plain weave bands:




Here's the 'other' side:





OK, I've shown you mine...

Joel Greifinger

Jim Miller

Hi Joel,

Here is my favorite back from an afshar bag.



I actually bought this bag primarily because I fell in love with the back. It is like Patrick's stepped diamond back, but larger in scale (the bag is bigger than a dollar bill, too and a bit (well maybe alot) more oblique.

I also like the way the back mirrors that latchhook medallion on the face



In terms of the flat weave, it is mostly dovetailed, but neither neat nor consistent. There are small places (2-4 rows) where the wefts return in a slit weave and in other places where individual wefts travel 1-2 extra warps beyond the color break.

Here is another more understated back from a Luri bag.



It is mostly a solid flat weave of that nice Luri yellow, but in each corner there is a blue cruciform. Its a soft blue and I like the color contrast. The cruciforms are slit weave and also a bit wonky, but I like them. It must be my inner anarchist's love for disordered structures.

Here is the face of this bag



I have a few more backs I like that I will post later.

Cheers to you all
Jim

Patrick Weiler

Jim,

I love that back! Afshar would not be my first guess. Khamseh maybe. The warps are white, so it could be Qashqa'i, but they are more likely to use slit-weave than dovetailed tapestry.
The colors just jump out at you, especially the yellow and red spandrels in the corners.
Yes, the back of that piece lifts it way above others like it.
The understated blue crosses of your second piece have exactly the opposite effect; one of harmony, peacefulness, calm and quiet.
Joel,
Your bag is great.The interesting banded back in different techniques livens what would otherwise be a large expanse of monotony. I have always liked that field design, too, the so-called "spanner" design. Yours has a dynamic asymmetrical color combination of the spanners, making it almost seem to move.
The design, with its sharp, pointed corners and the bold yet spare major border combine to make it a very tasty bag.

To continue the theme of backs, here is a Quchan-Kurd chanteh with TWO BACKS!
Notice the quadrupeds in the lower panels and the opposing amulet-like designs in the top four panels. The lower border consists of what Jim Burns might call a tortoise design.



The OTHER back has mostly diagonal wrapping and soumak with a typical Quchan-Kurd border but with a fairly unusual field design. I do not recall seeing these six-legged concentric squares before:



Here are both backs:



This dual-back (or dual-front) bag could be worn for casual daily use showing the more busy face, and with the spare, red-on-white for more formal affairs.


Patrick Weiler

Chuck Wagner

Hi All,

Well, I'm impressed. Some of us do remember where our digital camera is...

Joel, a really nice bag. See below for a related structural example (complementary weft structure, if I read Marla's book correctly); I refer to the striping on the back of your bag.

Jim, I think I like the back even more than I like the front (which confuses me - looks like a hybrid Afshar/Qashqai design).

Pat - I would have guessed Bahktiari-Lor based on a similar critter implementation to this bag - with a nice back - that has been posted before but fits well here:



...which is from this back...



...which belongs to this front...





Now, on to a relatively newer acquisition, a nice Jaff Kurd bag with intact (well, except for the gaping holes) back. It's actually one long piece, but tough to capture (with details) in a single image:

One face and back:



The other face and back:



Medium detail of some of the decorative work:



Closeup detailing how the decoration (in some cases) is truly interwoven:






And, following through with a related topic - who decides what the back is ?

The front (maybe):



The back (maybe):



The selvage, with decoration:



The inevitable closeup:




Regards
Chuck Wagner

Lloyd Kannenberg

Hi All,

Those are some gorgeous backs! Here are images of a few pieces whose backs I like. Apologies in advance for the quality of the pictures. This first pair is of a heybe whose attribution I leave to those more knowledgeable than I am:





The second pair is of a Lesghi grain bag, similar to examples in Nooter's book on Caucasian flatweaves:





The next pair is of a piece described to me as a Shahsavan grain bag, but I'm pretty sure it's a Sham Shaddin pillow cover:





Finally, a not-very-old Bergama chuval:





Seems to me that the backs are speaking to us almost as much as the fronts, but we are perhaps not yet as familiar with their language as we are that of the fronts.

Cheers,

Lloyd Kannenberg

Chuck Wagner

Hi Lloyd,

A heybe, eh ? Hinting at a possible Turkish origin, I guess. Here's a piece with the same structure and design on a different ground color - seller claimed it was Shahsevan; lately I've been leaning toward Qashqai based on some other images I've found:





This was in a salon a few years ago; here's a link to the page - there are closeup images of the back included there:

http://www.turkotek.com/salon_00124/salon.html

Regards
ChucK Wagner

Lloyd Kannenberg

Hi Chuck,

Thanks for enlightening me! Next time I'll just say "saddlebags". And I should have remembered your Salon, of course. I too have doubts about the "Shahsavan" attribution; could be Qashqai.

Lloyd Kannenberg

Jim Miller

Patrick,
My bag was labeled as Afshar when I bought it. Someone else suggested Chamseh as well. I don't know enough to distinguish. The warps are undyed white wool and the wefts are red. Thanks for the comment on the Qashqai preference for slit weave

Chuck,
I have learned to love the face, although the drawing and colors of the back are powerful. Here is a close up of the face - the colors and wool are really nice.



I am interested in the last piece you posted. I have a similar bag (not as nice as yours) that I was going to post as well, but I need to take better pictures. It is a distinctive pattern, very fine weft substitution with those unusual selvedges. They look like a strip of plain weave horse hair with sewn over the edges, rather that wrapped on the outside warps. When I first saw mine I thought it was a repair job, but I have seen two others (yours included) now. Do you know anything about who wove these? I think Qashqai, but must be a distinct subgroup.


I have one more back to share (I had 2, but Chuck stole my thunder)

Here is a small Malatya (grain?) bag 20" x 12" closed.







The interlocking squares make for an interesting and colorful pattern on the back. Since it is slit weave, they also make the back more solid. The front is all diagonals, so there are no open slits. If is really was a grain bag the interlocking pattern on the back may have kept the grain from falling out the slits in the back???

Cheers
Jim

Chuck Wagner

Hi Jim,

I don't have direct knowledge of the origin of the dark bag - I'm trying to find the reference images that I used to guesstimate Qashqai but probably won't get to it until next weekend, as I'm heading out of town today. The color scheme on Lloyds piece does in fact give one the initial impression of Anatolian work, and I suppose it is equally possible that this is some sort of cross-border Kurd derivative.

Dunno...

I wonder if Marla might have an opinion - haven't seen her on here lately, though.

This is why I was thinking Qashqai when I first saw the face of your bag - a Qashqai piece that I have:



This is a common motif for Qashqai bags. The patterns of the border and back of yours are - to me - atypical of Qashqai work.

BUT (a big but) your piece does have the classic Qashqai diamond strip at the bottom, so I am inclined to suggest yours may actually be a Qashqai piece.

A closeup of the back of the face, and the kilim back, might help work this out.

Regards
Chuck Wagner

Joel Greifinger

Hi folks,

In the interlude while we're awaiting more input on some of the pieces already posted, I figured I'd put up another favorite back:





The less colorful front has a couple of interesting features: a pile skirt design I haven't seen before, and a shade of purple in the four diamonds framing the central white one that is so dark that you can only make it out when it is flooded with light:



Joel Greifinger

Joel Greifinger

Hi all,

Here are a couple of bags from Sabahi's Qashqai: Tappeti tribali persiani that seem like they might be relevant in considering possible Qashqai attributions (though the second bag might do better service in the 'warp-faced' thread):





Joel Greifinger

Chuck Wagner

Hi Joel,

I have to admit that I find the front of the Jaf bag strikingly attractive - for me it is the crispness and precision of the drawing, and the vivid palette. That's rare in Jaf pieces.

I just got back into town and am too jetlagged to think, so instead I'll just post another back - from a Kashkuli chanteh I have - and then scoot off to find the references for that ? Qashqai ? piece.

Regards
Chuck Wagner

Chuck Wagner

Hi Joel,

I found a few images of bags with very similar construction and design - all from dealer sites and all saying Qashqai (I hope they know what they're talking about and not just reading this thread...). I thought I had a reference in a book - maybe it's at the vacation hut, because I know I saw it and I certainly can't find it here at the house.

Here are the pics:













Anyway, I was feeling pretty good about the whole Qashqai thing until the book hunt was nearly over. Then I found this:







which is from Brian MacDonald's book on tribal rugs, in which he says this horse cover is Lori (also spelled Luri).

So, now I'm confused again, except I'm pretty sure it's from somewhere in Fars.

Here's a closeup of the back of mine showing constuction details - just for completeness. This to note that the second piece in your last post is actually floating warp construction and as such is a different class of work.



Regards
Chuck Wagner

Joel Greifinger

Hi Chuck,

Yep, as I noted back in #19...

Meanwhile, this just in...the latest post on R. John Howe's site is a recent presentation by Bob Emry at the Textile Museum on Caucasian Flatweaves. Aside from a treasure trove of tasty textiles, it's got some nice structural illustrations, as well:

http://rjohnhowe.wordpress.com/2011/10/22/bob-emry-on-caucasian-flatweaves/

Joel Greifinger

Joel Greifinger

Getting back to backs, here's another South Persian model that, while not particularly spectacular, I find quite pleasing. It also provides the opportunity to add another flatweave technique that I don't think has made it into the salon discussion:



The construction is a weft-faced weave with vertical pick and pick bands in various colors. Here's it is, with bagface attached:



Joel Greifinger

Patrick Weiler

Joel,

Yes, that piece looks like it has been "picked" apart. I would suggest it is Lur, with the darker mixed warps, traditional design and the extra pile sections on what would have been the bottom of the face. These bags often experience wear in the lower corners, probably from abrasion externally and pressure internally. I have a khorjin set of about the same age, with those corners repaired in synthetic dyes. Once your bag has a couple of holes in it, you can either replace, repair or recycle. Unless you are trying to find your way back home using bread crumbs, but we all know that this technique is not too successful.
Chuck, the Lur designation for the horse cover is very likely due to the dark foundation. It may even be a goat-hair warp, but it is not obvious from the photos. The triangle bands at the bottom, between rows of twining, is a common pattern for Lur flatweaves, but is often used by other weavers in SW Iran.
A dealer I spoke with is not too impressed with horse covers. He says that there are probably a lot of them out there, but they just don't sell - which is why we don't see a lot of them on the market. My thought is that there are not a lot of them, but they can't be used on the floor, they are rather large and they are difficult to display so only "collectors" or "decorators" would want them. Small supply, but an even smaller market.
I have an early 20th century Qashqa'i version which I will post a couple of photos of.

Patrick Weiler

Patrick Weiler

Chuck,
I would also characterize your bag as Qashqa'i. The colors, particularly the green, and the peacock design often found in Qashqa'i work, along with the techniques favor them over a Shahsavan attribution.
As for the Lur horse cover, here are some pictures of a Qashqa'i version. The close-up shows a couple of "lions" with yellow bodies at the top and indeterminate quadrupeds below. You can also see the tall woman at the top, right of this first picture. This picture is "sideways" and shows part of the top of the piece:

Here is the whole thing:

And the main body. It is constructed of balanced plain-weave madder-red ground with pile decorations in the "tent-band" weave in which the knots are "tied" around warps on upper warps, with mostly only lower warps showing on the back with very little of the designs showing on the back.

Appropriate for Halloween, there is a lot of bright orange in this piece.
It is replete with remnants of tassels (similar to those on the Luri piece) on the sides and dangling tassels on the top, which would have been towards the rear of the horse. Although this is a thread on backs of pieces, you wouldn't see much except a few specks of the pile colors on the back of this piece.
Now I just need a stuffed horse in the living room to properly display this thing.

Patrick Weiler

Dinie Gootjes

Hi All,

Back at the computer after two months, there is not much I can add except more of the same. But I don't think any Baluch balishts have been presented, so here goes:





The chevrons are in what we have just discovered is weft substitution. Thanks, Marla, your comments are always much appreciated.

The front and back are still together, but not attached. Kind of a LAT relationship, I guess. I have a feeling my late mother-in-law lovingly separated them so as to be able to enjoy both at the same time. I will not say too much about that, especially as we caught the rug bug from her .

The piled front has a subtle use of two tints of red, in the best Baluch tradition. The flatwoven back has only the brighter of the two.

Dinie

Joel Greifinger

Hi Chuck (and all),

Back in panel #12, you posted three bags without saying much about the third one.
I've got a bag that looks like it might be from the same neighborhood, but I'm at a loss about just which neighborhood that is.
So, if you know who made yours (or who might have made mine), please share the info.







Joel Greifinger

Jim Miller

Joel and Chuck,

I have a similar bag as well.





The colors (esp the orange) are a bit hot on mine, but the rows of diamonds are very well articulated and are somewhat mesmerizing.

The construction and drawing between the bags are remarkable similar. The multicolors motifs on the front and similar diamond designs on the back in muted bicolors.

The selvedges are unique. I originally thought they were added to repair the original selvedges, until I saw the same construction on yours.

Any insight into where they are from would be appreciated.

My nickel is on SW persian/qashqai?

Jim

Chuck Wagner

Hi Joel, Jim, et al,

The person I bought mine from was only willing to commit to "somewhere in southwest Iran"; I observe that Marla calls the example in her book (with the same selvage treatment) South Persian.

I have seen a couple in shops - years ago - that were marketed as Qashqai, but as might be predicted, a quick look through Brian MacDonalds "Tribal Rugs" book shows an example attributed as Luri. What a prankster...

Regards
Chuck Wagner

Joel Greifinger

Hi Chuck and Jim,

Chuck - thanks for the pointer to Woven Structures which, once again, provides the essential elucidation.

Marla deals with these examples in the chapter on Joins, where the overcasting of the bag sides are encased in decorative binding strips that are woven separately and then sewn on. Like Jim, when I got the bag, I thought that this was a later repair replacing the original selvages. Instead, this type of join seems to be characteristic of such South Persian complementary-weave saddlebags.

BTW, I've seen them marketed as Qashqa'i, as well.

Joel Greifinger