Steve Price

Hi People

In response to a request to continue discussion on a thread (Salor red on wool - insect dyes in Salor weaves) in the recently archived Mini-Salon 26, I'm opening this thread for that purpose. When it's run its course, I'll add it to the archived thread. Here is a link to that thread.

Regards

Steve Price

Michael Bischof

Pierre Galafassi finished his last contribution with the sentence ,,I do not see much fun at further discussing differences of opinion except when new facts are involved.

This is a nice invitation for new facts.

Yes, let us first offer new facts and then answer the questions that were left
open.
"
The attached pictures shows one ,,early Salor red" on a fine woollen
fabric amongst other dyes. I mean the scarlet-red wool fabric below the
yellow silk.This was done from madder alone, without any tin, and not ,,hot"
(with hot I mean above body temperature). In this case Einstein's cleverer
brother was Mümin Kurnaz in Karaman.

Sorry that I was not able to take a picture where this is placed on an Early
salor red weaving, what should have been the better idea in your original article as well, Pierre!. May be later.

,,Unless the dyes were synthetic or Einstein’s cleverer brother was the
madder/tin dyer......"
No, as I wrote there: these scarlet socks were made exclusively with
cochineal: ,,...another picture of scarlet (Cochineal on a tin mordant) on
Mohair:" I did => not say it was madder.

,,3) ...But then Salor Turkmen never had the reputation of being incompetent
dyers, did they?" So I had asked you:
,,How do you know who made the dyes?"
Would you like to answer this question, whatever speculative, but show the
sources, please?

,,To call applying tin chloride in its hydrate form a «technical mistake» is
your very personal opinion..."
Notice, please, that I meant the case that the bulky hydroxide is not
redissolved and absorbed by the fiber and the wool is corroded by the
mordanting process. If it works - it works. But even in the 18th century
European workshops it very often failed, so often, that people found it
necessary to discuss this problem in their books. Not an easy task,
especially not in 18th century Turkmenistan.

You wrote: ,, please note also the use of the «cream of tartar» buffer in the
mordanting recipe)." But I could not find it: ,,Well, I saw no mordanting
recipe."- So, please, where did you write this mordanting recipe?

,,This friend has a truly unique practical knowledge of the matter." - This
makes one wonder why this knowledge does not prevent him from applying dyeing
methods that yield this: ,,...but the shade, while superbly saturated, is not
in any way a bright «Salor red»." I agree with you: the method that you
described will result in a saturated, but dull dye lake. The result of
the same method in Central Anatolia is of course the same.

,,Even if you would start with pseudo-purpurine of pharmaceutical purity, any
hot dye process would convert it largely to purpurine. (Do you believe that
this is not the case?)." Of course this is the case - and the reason why the
above mentioned weeks-long period will never give the desired result.

,,A copy of the «bible» written by my former competitor (and nevertheless
outstanding analytical chemist ) Schweppe, would give you some mileage too."
Here I do not understand the term ,,competitor". I met Schweppe personally in
my former gallery. I read the ,,bible", of course. Our work about HPLC with
UV/Vis Diode Array Detection was cited there, but it does not discuss in
length the influence of different nuancing metals.

University papers about this topic did not exist till about 2000; yes,
what ,,Google" means I know. But it seemed that you have at hand (in
electronically stored form?) some newer stuff. We would be ready for some URL
or material by private mail.

Where does the question of early Salor red stand now?

Madder on pure tin mordant? In my experience (since 1981) the result is too
orange (yellowish, not scarlet) but I may try it again. But it takes time,
till about end of this month. - Microchemical analysis of Salor red threads
should be easy, though. Who will do it?
Nuancing with tiny amounts of tin on an alum-madder-dye lake: may be some
reader will know it better. I personally would question that this might be
possible.


Regards,

Michael Bischof

Pierre Galafassi

[quote=Michael Bischof;8780]
Where does the question of early Salor red stand now?


In my opinion, not an inch further. I do not see new facts in all that, sorry. And I do renew my suggestion to agree about disagreeing.

Nuancing with tiny amounts of tin on an alum-madder-dye lake: may be some reader will know it better. I personally would question that this might be possible.

You are most welcome to question it.

Regards,
Pierre

Michael Bischof

Well, that it is possible to get the desired ,,early-Salor-red" shade without using any tin (250% madder) I would estimate to be a new fact in the frame of this salon.
According to Occam's razor it means that it is unnecessary to ,,... suggest that tin mordanting was the secret of Salor dyers."

The result of the salon would then be, to express it in your own language, t ohave demonstrated anew ,,...that significantly brighter red shades can be obtained with madder on tin mordanted wool (13), compared to alum mordanting, as every modern cottage dyer will tell you." So we would know what we already knew.

In addition one needs to discuss how likely it was that they used
.a tin as an extra or single mordant
b. as a kind of desired ,,collateral damage" when mordanting with alum in a tin-lined copper vessels

Therefore I want to repeat here for the second time my question:

As it is ovious that the socio-economic frame of the dyeing operations (did nomadic people do the dye works in their yayla/kişla? Or were they done by sedentary villagers in that area? Or by professionally trained specialists in the towns of that area?) is essential for estimating how likely or unlikely tin mordanting might have been there.
Until now the only Salor red dyes that were evidently made using tin are insect dyes on wool in the center of the güls, most likely Lac, with corroded wool, and there is yet no evidence for the application of tin for making the ground colour of Salor weaves.