Steve Price

Hi People

Jack Cassin's way of sending messages to me is to post vulgar, semi-literate messages that he knows will be blocked in our moderator queue. For the past few days their focus has been that his original contributions to understanding ensis are being plagiarized because we (specifically, Michael Raysson and Martin Anderson) included covering the portal to the shaman's yurt among the possible uses of pile ensis.

As far as I know, he raised this possibility before anyone else did; not as a possibility, but as a proven fact. I made some comments on his "contribution" about 4 years ago. Interested readers will find that in the 6th post of this thread.

I hope this puts the issue of plagiarism to rest.

Regards

Steve Price

Chuck Wagner

Steve,

I have to say that I am dismayed that this affliction of Cassin's remains untreated after so many, many, many years of constantly evident symptoms. His endless, mostly pointless, typically unsubstantiated, and always uncontributive narcissistic rants may well go down into carpet mythology as one of the worst examples of childlike behavior in the post-synthetic dye period. Perhaps that is his goal - a place in the history books, and several Psychology 201 texts....



More likely, though, the result of this sort of behavior:



Kudos to both you and Filiberto for nearly infinite patience, and far more grace under fire than our chum could ever hope to conjur up.

Regards,
Chuck

Martin Andersen

Hi Steve

Well I see that bringing up interpretations here is stepping around in a minefield.

(so on my own part I will just quickly give some credit elsewhere. Apart form dialogs here on turkotek with Jim Allan, i think it is actually Wendel Swan and funny enough you who made me start speculating on the relation between the Seljuk rugs, the Kejebe design and Kejebe Tent, and then perhaps the Ensi. Somewhere down in this thread : http://www.turkotek.com/misc_00022/amu_darya.htm )

best Martin

Steve Price

Hi Martin

If someone makes an intellectual contribution - presents some new idea or interpretation along with enough evidence to give it credibility - he should be acknowledged as the innovator. Cassin's "contribution" isn't in that category. The idea was novel, but misleadingly presented as though it had solid evidence behind it.

Anyone who is able to marshall evidence that the original purpose of ensis was to cover the portals to shaman's yurts will have made a significant original contribution to our understanding. If or when that happens, the person who does it will be the innovator. He or she will have no obligation to credit anyone else with mentioning the possibility in the past, although there's nothing to prevent him/her from doing so.

In Rostand's Cyrano de Bergerac, the hero imagines a way to fly to the moon (an absurd way, of course). Rostand is not acknowledged in writings about the historical development of space travel; he's not a pioneer in that field and the folks who developed space programs did not plagiarize his ideas.

Regards

Steve Price

Michael Raysson

Dear Steve and all,

I am a beginner in collecting irate messages from Jack Cassin, but I think I have some real winners. As I told Steve privately, I may disagree with him about rugs and facilitating, but I found him to be very helpful here and a real mensch.

However, I have a very different take on Jack than most. I do feel he has a lot to offer to the rug world and though his views are perhaps far out, they are a necessary part of the dialogue. Unfortunately, the worst enemy of Jack is Jack,
and because of that very few people will ever take him seriously. Even worse, they will never take those type of ideas seriously.

Michael Raysson

Steve Price

Hi Michael

1. How can anybody who's unable to engage in civil discourse be "part of the dialogue"?
2. How can anything offered to the rug world by a person who isn't taken seriously be useful?

Just as an aside, I think his repeated assertions that he's expert in rugs in general, especially Turkmen rugs, is ridiculous. He presents what he says with an air of authority, and when the subject is one about which I'm ignorant, it can sound like the words of an expert. What I've discovered (as have many others) is that when the subject is one about which I know something, he's off by a mile. I see this as evidence that he doesn't know what he's talking about when he expounds about other things, either. The alternative is that he's only knowledgeable about things of which I'm ignorant, but expert on those. This is an absurd proposition.

Regards

Steve Price

Michael Raysson

Steve,

I agree with you on number one. As for number two and the rest, the point is this: I believe Jack Cassin has views of worth for the rest of the rug world. The way he expresses it is lamentable insofar as respect and fellow-feeling are concerned. And, yes, he is not as good as he thinks.

That does not negate the fact that we can learn something from him.

Michael

Michael Raysson

Anyway, Steve, I have lost all respect for the guy. Period.

Steve Price

Hi Michael

That does not negate the fact that we can learn something from him.

How? Since so much of what he writes is fabricated, how do you identify the stuff that's true unless you already know it? And if you already know it, what do you learn from him?

Regards

Steve Price

Michael Raysson

Steve,

My point exactly. Neither you nor most anyone else can take him seriously. People only see a ranting maniac. His ideas are disgraced (even if they have value).

Michael

Steve Price

Hi Michael

Ideas only have value if they can lead somewhere. Institutions for the mentally ill are filled with people who have new and often interesting ideas all the time. Even if some of those ideas are true, they aren't useful. They're irrelevant (like the plots in pornographic movies).

Regards

Steve Price

Steve Price

Hi Folks

Under a pseudonym (Robert Kelsey, DDS) Cassin sent me a message to post to this thread. It's essentially identical to what he posted under another pseudonym (Marvin Marcus) a few years ago. It isn't a show worth seeing more than once, but for anyone who's interested in reading it, it's in this thread. You'll have to scroll down a bit to get to "Marvin Marcus'" first post

Regards

Steve Price

Marek Szymanowicz

Hallo,

.. well, difficult to me to judge Mr. Cassin's knowledge and expertise as my knowledge is not the greatest, but have to tell you that I met him personally once. In Poland. Don't ask me what was he doing here in the summer about 3-4 years ago, maybe looking for some old pieces for his collection
Anyway very interesting individual He had a lot of good things to say about his virtual museum and a lot of things to say about "the rug experts" - the reason I've used quotation marks is because when he was pronauncing the words rug experts it sounded like he was saying it with quotation marks, if you know what I mean...

regards

marek

Dr. Ian Webber

Dr. Price et.al.:
I have read with interest this thread and wonder what all the fuss is about?

Mr. Cassin's ideas, while speculative and novel, are presented as such, for nowhere did I get the impression, or read, different.

Many authors have approached this topic, what are ensi all about, with conjecture that could not be characterized as anything more substantial than what Mr. Cassin presents.

It is clear there is no provable assertion possible therefore, I repeat, what all the fuss about?

In closing I believe what Mr. Cassin does present is far more credible than this thread tries to discount.

Could personal prejudice be the cause for this uproar?

Steve Price

Hi "Dr. Webber"

Here are some direct quotations from Cassin:

... engsi clearly express an iconography related to this spiritual environment and display symbols derived from the cult of the shaman, from related mythology and the supernatural.

The shaman’s powers and connection to the world beyond separated him from the group ... his yurt entrance had a covering decorated with sacred symbols. The engsi was the shaman’s curtain separating his world of spirit from the ordinary. This context not only explains the original use and purpose of engsi but also how the engsi became known as door-rugs and, in post-archaic times, became portal coverings.

He doesn't present a shred of evidence to support any of these assertions. I invite you to point out where he says that these are speculations. Like just about everything on WAMRI, they are presented as declarations of facts.

Regards

Steve Price

Dr. Ian Webber

Dr. Price:

It seems apparent you have, in your reply, insulted my title and worse do not believe the genuity of my reply.

I will be glad to suffer your paranoia just as long as it does not become even more unpleasant.

Sorry but I can not quote Mr. Cassin line and verse however please allow me a bit of time to re-read what he wrote.

I am pretty positive your immediate, and repetitous might I add, reply overlooks evidence which nullifies your position.

Steve Price

Hi Again, "Dr. Webber"

Actually, I thought the name "Webber" was pretty clever, enough so that it made me wonder if you really are Cassin. But including the word, genuity, erased all doubt.

Steve Price

Steve Price

Hi Again, "Dr. Webber"

You posted two more messages. First I'll answer one of your questions:
"What do I find so clever about your name?"

Two things. One, we are on the web, somebody who uses the web might use "webber" to describe himself. Weber, a word that is close enough to "webber" to come up on a Google search, means "weaver" in German; that seems appropriate for a textile forum.

You insist that Dr. Ian Webber is your real name, and that you've been using it for 74 years (presumably, without the title at the start). I've blocked both of your messages. But, if you will send me contact information (by e-mail; if you prefer to protect your privacy, I'll keep it confidential), I'll do some simple checking to confirm your identity. If a 74 year old Ian Webber with the title of Dr. actually submitted those messages, I will
1. post them promptly, in full, and
2. apologize for suggesting that you are actually Jack Cassin. The apology will be profuse and sincere, and will be right here in the same public venue as my accusation. I can hardly imagine anything more insulting than to call you that.

Steve Price

Jeff Sun

I have to see I find the unusual number nature of personal rivalries and attacks in the rug world to be...um...amusing.

Yeah, mostly amusing. But also a bit befuddling

I mean we're talking about rugs, right? Old pieces of cloth that go on the floor or on the wall. A hobby for most. A professional past time for a few.

How can somebody get so worked up about this if there is a disagreement? It's not like you are talking about somebody's mother.

Steve Price

Hi Jeff

I couldn't agree more. That's why Turkotek has maintained and enforced a policy of not discussing people, since the present management group took over the site about 12 years ago. The only exceptions we permit are responses to persistent personal attacks by others. Cassin has a "discussion forum" that was created about 6 years ago as a venue for expressing his malice. I was the original target, although it's expanded since then.

There's one other person for whom we make the exception, for similar reasons, but he's been less aggressive in public lately and there's no reason to mention him here.

I do try to keep such things segregated from the bulk of our content, which is about rugs.

Regards

Steve Price

Jerry Silverman

Dear Jeff,

If only it were "talking about somebody's mother."

But Cassin's rants go far beyond that.

After you've been the subject of a few, get back to me on how "amusing" you find them or how "befuddled" they make you.

Cordially,

-Jerry-

Jeff Sun

All I can say then, is that this board is moderated like most other boards.

The usual solution: Ban trolls. Delete all their posts. If any of "clones" show up, ban them too.

Steve Price

Hi Jeff

There are exactly two people who are banned*, both for refusing to stay within the rules posted atop this page. We believe that these rules are reasonable. We are absolutely certain that we are within our rights to have them.

We are convinced by experience and observation that constructive discussion is impossible without civil behavior. If you doubt this, just look in on the content of Cassin's forum. Ad hominem comments contribute nothing and drive off constructive participants, ultimately preventing a discussion board from functioning. At one point we gave Cassin a personal forum. He complained that it was positioned too far down in the forums list, warned that he was going to discredit us, and created his "discussion forum" for that purpose about 6 years ago. He continues to post here under assorted pseudonyms, and we continue to block posts that we are 100% sure are from him. We don't remove anything that he's already posted**, and we don't obfuscate the content of those posts by inserting our own comments into their texts ("we" in this case is Filiberto and me, the administrators).

The second banned person also briefly had a website dedicated to commentary about us, and also uses lots of pseudonyms. His ban has been lifted several times, but he seems unable to maintain civility for very long.

I'm not going to comment about how any other internet board is moderated; they actually vary a lot. Our system seems to work to our satisfaction, and we now have nearly 12 years of experience with it. We submit it to a public evaluation every five years or so, during which suggestions from others sometimes come in. But, any time anyone has suggestions for changes, please send them to me and I'll bring them to the attention of the group that sets policy here.

Thanks.

Steve Price

*This doesn't include spammers, who get banned before their first post appears on the forums. There's a new one registered nearly every day.

**There have been two exceptions, in which he posted obscenities in forums on which I neglected to set the filters that put posts from unregistered authors into a moderator queue. Those two posts were deleted.