Posted by Patrick Weiler on 01-31-2005 11:36 PM:

What is this date?

Here is a rug that was sold on e-bay last year:






The problem with the date is that it combines the Arabic numbers of:
1251 and the Western number 5. 1251 could be 1836.

What do you make of this? I believe it was sold as "late 19th century".

Patrick Weiler

Posted by Marvin Amstey on 02-01-2005 11:52 AM:

Obviously, its 1251 raised to the power of 5.

Posted by Filiberto Boncompagni on 02-02-2005 03:14 AM:

Hi Pat,

Look carefully at the second digit: that is a V. The first one is an I. So, in Roman numerals IV = 4.

No, seriously, the second digit looks like a 7, (in Arabic numerals) not a 2.
But it cannot mean the year 1751 of the Hegira: that corresponds to AD 2364, if my calculations are correct.
The third and fourth digit that you read as “5 and 1” could be an unique digit, instead: a “9”
So it could be read as an underlined "179" with a smaller Western numeral “5” (which is on a different row). I have no idea of what it could mean, anyway.
Regards,

Filiberto

Posted by Tim Adam on 02-02-2005 03:43 AM:

How about 1295? One arabic and three western numerals. The weaver only didn't know how to make a western 2. Or someone tampered with the date, and messed it up.

Just for fun, below is another curious date.



Tim

Posted by Steve Price on 02-02-2005 07:05 AM:

Hi Tim and All

The Arabic zero can be represented as a circle or oval, but is also sometimes simply a dot. On rugs with inscribed three digit numbers, especially those with the "handle" at the beginning that signifies a date, perhaps the zero was just left off by the weaver, usually someone illiterate.

Then again, maybe not.

Regards

Steve Price

Posted by Patrick Weiler on 02-02-2005 12:46 PM:

Ipsum Lorem ?

Here is a curious rug I use as a 3'x5' door mat:








In the upper right-hand corner it has an inwoven series of digits. They resemble a date, but I have no clue what they could mean.
It is a Hamadan-type rug of fairly new construction, designed to mimic a Wagireh, or sampler.
If this was a sampler, it is possible that the letters or numbers placed on the rug are a "sample" inscription, similar to the fake Latin that is used by typesetters to show what a document would look like, but without actually writing anything comprehensible in the body of the document. This is known as "Lorem Ipsum" due to this phrase being the beginning of the first sentence of most types of this "dummy text".
you can find a breif description of Lorem Ipsum here:
http://www.lipsum.com/
You can even generate some of it yourself!

Patricius Weilerius

Posted by Tim Adam on 02-03-2005 03:15 AM:

Steve,

What did you mean by "handle"?

The point of my post was that the Arabic numbers 138 would translate to 1960, if one imagined a missing 0 at the end.

Tim

Posted by Steve Price on 02-03-2005 07:13 AM:

Hi Tim

Many inscribed dates are preceded by a device that looks rather like the handle of a carpenter's saw. I'm told that it has a meaning analogous to writing AD after one of the dates on our calendar - it tells you that the accompanying numbers are a year. I'll try to locate a picture of one and post it.

Regards

Steve

Posted by Steve Price on 02-03-2005 07:55 AM:

Hi Again Tim

Here's a rug with that device preceding the date:



It's not the clearest example; most of the ones I've seen look more like a right triangle with the vertical line on the right side of it, but I don't have time to hunt around much and won't have time for another day or two. If anyone else has a better example handy, please post it.

Regards

Steve Price

Posted by Tim Adam on 02-06-2005 05:52 AM:

Maybe it is getting a little boring, but in case not, here is another date I have not been able to figure out. Any ideas?



Tim

Posted by Patrick Weiler on 02-06-2005 07:24 PM:

Upside Down

Tim,

Can't you see? You have posted the photo upside down. When you turn it the right way up, it says:
TimiT. Tim from both directions.

PataP Weiler

Posted by Cevat Kanig on 02-06-2005 07:54 PM:

Hi Tim,

It looks like that rug was woven for you.
Enjoy it !

__________________
Cevat Kanig

Posted by Filiberto Boncompagni on 02-07-2005 12:17 PM:

Excuse me, Tim, what kind of rug is that?
Regards,

Filiberto

Posted by Kenneth Thompson on 02-07-2005 07:04 PM:

Dear All,

If I am not mistaken--and if Steve means the line and loop to the left of the date--it is the final "e" of the arabic script "sene" or "year" appearing below. My experience in Turkey years ago was that in Ottoman dates, it was not unusual to leave off the first (thousands) digit to save space. If that was not the symbol that Steve meant, then I am as puzzled as anyone else.

Regards.

Ken Thompson

Posted by Steve Price on 02-07-2005 08:41 PM:

Hi ken

I was referring to the "line and loop" to the left of the date. Here's the date in a Shirvan prayer rug that I own, and it shows the "handle" in a form more like what I think I've seen more often. Again, the "handle" is the device to the left of the date, looks a bit like a sailboat in this one.



Regards

Steve Price

Posted by Tim Adam on 02-07-2005 11:38 PM:

Hi Patrick and Cevat,

Thanks for your astute observation. You must be right! It must be my rug. If you ever come across it, let me know. I'd love to claim it.

Filiberto: The rug was sold on e-Bay last year, to, as it appears now, an unlegitimate owner. All I know about it is that it was Caucasian ... I think.

More seriously, could the crosses stand for zeros? The underlining shows from what side the date should be read, right?

Regards,

Tim

Posted by Filiberto Boncompagni on 02-08-2005 02:52 AM:

Hi Tim,

If the rug is Caucasian, that’s not necessarily Arabic. There are also Armenian, Russian, and Georgian alphabets to consider. You can find the middle letter, the reversed m, in Armenian and Cyrillic. Although I don’t know what to make of the others symbols…
And, yes, “The underlining shows from what side the date should be read” I guess.
Regards,

Filiberto

Posted by Kenneth Thompson on 02-08-2005 09:33 AM:

Dear Steve,

Here are two photos which should illustrate the "sene" (year) and date. It is much harder to see on your Shirvan, since knots/pixels are so widely separated.

I scanned the word from an Ottoman dictionary and put another illustration from a Turkish bowl's inscription.





I think that the date on the rug with which Patrick began the thread is 1294. The weaver had trouble completing the 4 and got the top backwards.


Best regards,

Ken Thompson

Posted by Steve Price on 02-08-2005 09:48 AM:

Hi Ken

Thanks for the photos. I'm sure you're right about the reading of the "handle". The date on my Shirvan is easier to read from a little distance - the rug is very finely knotted and the inscription is very small.

One of the many things about it that has always appealed to me is that the date replaces a flower. You can sort of see it in the right hand spandrel in this image:



Regards

Steve Price

Posted by Kenneth Thompson on 02-08-2005 10:24 AM:

Dear Steve,

Absolutely superb rug!
The date-as-flower is beautiful.

Is this the Shirvan with the silk wefts that you brought to the Textile Museum a few years ago? I remember that one as a magnificent piece, but don't have a very good photographic memory.


Best regards,

Ken Thompson

Posted by Steve Price on 02-08-2005 10:27 AM:

Hi Ken

Yes, it is the silk-wefted Shirvan, and I've shown it during a couple of my Saturday morning talks at the Textile Museum.

Thanks for the kind words.

Regards

Steve Price

Posted by Filiberto Boncompagni on 02-08-2005 10:31 AM:

Hi Ken,

quote:
I think that the date on the rug with which Patrick began the thread is 1294. The weaver had trouble completing the 4 and got the top backwards.

I’m not very convinced of you explanation.
Think about it. You are a weaver; you decide to weave a date. You have to plan it, it’s not like writing. You start with a row of black knots, then an empty row of red knots, then you start the bases of three numbers with three white knots among the red ones… and so on for at least four rows up. And suddenly you realize you forgot the fourth digit? You even write it wrong?
Nah… well, perhaps she was illiterate. But, even illiterate persons know numbers. Or she was also very absent-minded… like myself.
Regards,

Filiberto

Posted by Kenneth Thompson on 02-08-2005 11:35 AM:

Dear Filiberto,

You are rightfully skeptical. After all, I work in the nation's capital, a place not known for logic, reason, or convincing explanations.

I don't know why the last digit would be badly written and out of line, unless it was a repair that was good in other respects.

Anybody's guess.

Best regards,

Ken