Mystery Textile Number 12

Here is the first clue for Mystery Textile number 12:

Baluch rug, late 19th century.
Igo

Piled tent band with a dark ground; probably not Turkoman, but maybe Kyrgyz or Uzbek.
(Don't ask me for a valley name, Richard....)

Age ???

Chuck

__________________
Chuck Wagner

dear all


CLUE NUMBER TWO







good luck


richard farber

Hmmm.. OK, that was embarassing. Forget the suggestion that it's a tent band. With the corroded browns I'm now in Igo's camp: Baluchi. But I'll also hazard that it's a Persian one, maybe Khorassan.

Chuck

__________________
Chuck Wagner

Here is the third clue:

Hi,

Symm. knots.....I think.

Western Turkey?
Bergama, Oushak?
±1920?
Maybe it has a Keyhole design?
But not a prayer rug.
It has two keyholes. One for heaven and one for the monastery.

Best regards,
Vincent

dear all

another CLUE








good luck


richard farber

If this is not a Baluch, I’ll eat my hat!
Filiberto

dear filiberto

of course i might well be wrong and have been poorly advised on this carpet BUT

i would like to know the type of sauce you plan to use when eating your head covering.


will it be a red and white kafieh or a borsilino ?

a new clue will be posted in a few hours.


dear all TWO CLUES


A CLUE you are not far off and i suggest you think of the country this carpet may be from . . . .


AND ANOTHER CLUE

this country figures in another unsolved mystery textile


sincerely


richard farber

CLUE NUMBER 5






good luck

Damn!
Well… Given the case, I’m deeply undecided between Worcestershire and mint sauce.


Regards,

Filiberto

Hi all,

I've never seen a Beshiri rug from a Bukhara workshop with a Baluchi-ized Tekke gul.

Until now.

Go figure...

Chuck

__________________
Chuck Wagner

dear all

a final clue






the answer tomorrow


sincerely


richard farber


i see now that there was a mixup . . and this was supposed to be a previous clue . . . never mind . . . .

here is the image of the piece . . . the image is of half the piece . . . the other part is torn and worn.

Hi,

One last shot.
This looks like a Beloudch.
But.
The design has something Anatolian.
The weaver rotated only half the border design in the top border. So shehe was fighting with it.
Now the knots look like asymm.
Nevertheless, I go for Kurdistan.
1920
Turkey.
A rug.

Best regards,
Vincent

Thanks Richard,
For the frustration
the
the
the
the

Best regards,
Vincent

I believe Herr Licht has it right, or nearly so. And Filberto need eat only a potion of a hat. "Arab" Baluch, Ferdows region, circa 1900 in my opinion. The border motifs, both main and guards, are dead giveaways. The almost complete corrosion of the brown is typical of pile weavings from this area. A dollar says the knots are open right and either the warps or wefts or both are cotton. Theorized by Azadi and others to be woven by Arab tribes living near Ferdows... unless you subscribe to the Tom Cole theory (see Hali article) in which he called these pieces possibly "outback Afshars". I'll stay with the mainstream collectors and dealers and call them "Arab Baluch".
Regards,
Tom

THE SOLUTION TO THE MISTERY

thanks to the participants who contributed to the guessing of this item and especially to the unnamed participant who I"m sure will supply us with images of himself eating his hat..,


THE ANSWER

The carpet to the best of my knowledge is from North East Peria - yes there is such a thing! It is from the distict of Kuchan and is called by dealers by the same name.

“Kuchan [Quchan] a fertile and populous district of the province of Khurasan in Persia, bounded on the North by Russian Turkestan. The population is principally composed of the descendants of a tribe of Zafaranlu Kurds which was established there, with a hereditary Kahn as its head, by Shah Abbas I. in the 17th cent. and is estimated at 100,000. A large proportion are nomads and live in tents.

from the 14th edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica 1929


So the answer would be

a knotted carpet

from N.E. Persia, Kuchan

around 1900 [this could well be a few years earlier or a quarter of a century older depending on who you ask.]

OR INOTHER WORDS A KURDISH CARPET FROM N.E. PERSIA


sincerely

richard farber



the salon will be open for another day or two if you want to comment . . . i could well be mistaken and would appreciate you input.

He, he, he!

As we all know, the Baluch label is rather loose and doesn’t apply to rugs strictly produced by Baluchi tribes.

Quote from Boucher’s “Baluchi Woven Treasures”, page 14:

“In addition, there are other well-known groups, who are not Baluchi, but who weave rugs resembling Baluchi products in this area. In Persia the most important are the Timuris of Torbat-e-Jam and Zurabad areas, the Quchan Kurds, and the Firadows Arabs.”
And so on… Referring to Afghanistan, Boucher lists also the Aimaq and again the Timuri (like the Yaqub-Khani and the Dokhtar-e-Ghazi). Some of the Chahar Aimaq clans even “include people of Turkic as well as Persian, Mongol and Arab extraction”.

In the book there is a whole section dedicated to “Baluchi in name only”, and the first one, (plate 52) is from Northeast Persia, Khorasan. It is said that “rugs of this type are usually attributed to Kurdish weavers living in the area between Nishapur ans Sabzevar”.
The section then shows Timuri and Aimaq’s rugs.

SOOO…

I won’t eat my hat, sorry, since I still consider this a Baluchi rug, although a “Baluchi in name only”.
Regards,

Filiberto

with a pinch of salt

dear filiberto . . .

you wrote


"He, he, he!

As we all know, the Baluch label is rather loose and doesn’t apply to rugs strictly produced by Baluchi tribes. "

Quote from Boucher’s “Baluchi Woven Treasures”, page 14:

“In addition, there are other well-known groups, who are not Baluchi, but who weave rugs resembling Baluchi products in this area. In Persia the most important are the Timuris of Torbat-e-Jam and Zurabad areas, the Quchan Kurds, and the Firadows Arabs.”


if i may answer . . . your quote agrees that this Quchan KURDISH rug from n.e. persia resembles baluch products . . . but just becuase others have IN ERROR mis attributed kuchan rugs for baluch doesnt mean that we here in turkotek have to allow this mistake to continue. . . i suggest a vote be taken as to wether or not you have to eat your hat . . . and i for one suggest a nice sauce perhaps with mushrooms !


with a pinch of salt

richard farber

Boucher didn't put that rug in his book by mistake, he was well aware of its provenance!

Uh…

I also suggest the prize should go to Chuck who declared: “Baluchi. But I'll also hazard that it's a Persian one, maybe Khorassan.”
Regards,

Filiberto

…unless your dealer is wrong, Tom Hubbard is right and this is an Arab Baluchi.

(Whatever, Baluchi is fine for me)

I agree with me

Hi all,

The wool, clip, proportions, design implementation, and selvage all say Baluchi . But the border is CLASSIC Beshiri and appears on many Beshiri pieces I've seen, and on several readliy available on the net. Here's one from TT:



So, while I think it's Baluchi, I still wonder if it's Beshiri. A closeup of the back of the rug and the selvage would be helpful...

Regards,
Chuck


By the way, if you want to know why I got off on the tent band idea, take a look at Marla's writeup on tent bands in her Woven Structures Update. About 2/3 down this page is an image of a tent band with a dark ground:

http://www.marlamallett.com/bands-more.htm

I don't want to grab the image without her permission.

__________________
Chuck Wagner

dear all


chuck wagner had written almost at the beginning


"With the corroded browns I'm now in Igo's camp: Baluchi. But I'll also hazard that it's a Persian one, maybe Khorassan.

Chuck
__________________
Chuck Wagner"


i now in retrospect see [thank you filiberto] that i should have declared chuck wagner as the winner after the second clue. i apologize and herebye declare.

mr chuck wagner is the winner of this attribution game after amazingly declaring after the second clue that the piece is from the khurasan area .

he is herebye and worthwith intitle to purchase a turkotek tee shirt when and if ever it is made [for full price of course] and wear it with honor as one of the winners of the first ever turkotek name that textile attribution game.


congradulations !!!


most sincerely

richard farber


and because the game had actually been won before filiberto declared that he will eat his hat i herebye declare that his declaration is invalid and he no longer has to perform said act and in compensation for this oversight i herebye declare him co and most honorable winner of this game with full entitlement to purchase and wear the tee shirt when and if ever it is made.

Dear Richard,

Thanks for hosting this mystery weaving forum and allowing me to play.

I respect your announcement of Chuck as the winner. His guess after only two clues is impressive. And I would allow that "possibly Khorassan" qualifies as a basis for award. Congratulations Chuck!

However, even though I believe Chuck is correct in a general sense, I believe the announcement of "Baluch...from Kuchan" is not, if my suspicions as to structure are correct. I understand that you did not come up with this attribution yourself. I just believe your dealer friend may not be up on the latest Baluch attribution scholarship.

Khorassan cover about 330,000 square km. It includes the Kuchan region and Ferdows (Firdaus) region, among others.

Weavings from the Kuchan region that borrow "Baluch" designs are almost always symmetrically knotted and on an all-wool foundation. They are thought to have been woven by Kurds, not "Baluch", although intermarriage may have been common at the turn of the century. I am marginally OK with calling these "Kurd Baluch" since enough collectors do that it tacitly validates that moniker.

I would still appreciate knowing the structure of the subject weaving. Current Baluch scholors (I don't consider myself one, by the way) differentiate Arab "Baluch" weavings, which were probably woven by Arabs, not Baluch, as usually, as I previously stated, having asymmetric knots open to the right, and usually having warps, wefts, or both of cotton, although rarely the foundation can be all-wool. And the border system shown in the subject piece is typical of Ferdows region pieces, but not for Kuchan pieces. With a little tutoring I could show a border detail of one of my pieces from the Ferdows region which is nearly identical to the current discussion piece.

Should your piece have symmetric knots and be woven on an all-wool foundation, I may go quietly. Please just make sure those grey wefts are really wool, because the cotton wefts in Arab pieces may at first glance look like wool.

Again, thanks for letting me play. It has been fun.

All the best.
Tom