A pair of bag faces, twins or relatives?!

[Carl Gray Registered Find all posts View Profile Close Carl Gray]

Not so long ago I acquired these 2 bag faces. I made the decision to buy them on the basis of photographs and from these I assumed that they were a pair. They were both filthy so I gave them a good clean and it was only then that I started to notice more and more differences.
(Images A and B)
Let’s call the one on the left bag face 1.
(Images C, D, E and F)
Thew one on the right bag face 2.
(Images G, H, I and J)
I have no idea where they originate from but think they might be Kurdish? I think that they are old and that most of the dyes the are natural although some of the dark brown on bag face 1 has corrosion, so possibly early synthetic?
Quite clearly, the colour scheme and motifs have a common origin and only when looking at the detail do the differences become apparent. When viewing the backs they look quite different, bag face 1 having seemingly tighter drawing and wefts are different colour.
Both have symmetrical knots, single and double wefted, but bag face 1 uses brown yarn, bag face 2 pink/red yarn (I think that they are both all wool). Handle is similar but bag face 1 slightly less floppy and possibly thicker pile.
I don’t think that they are twins but rather relatives. What do others think? If they are relatives which one is older or are they about the same age? I was going to keep 1 of them and sell the other but think I’ll hang on to them both as they might show the evolution of a common design.

[Steve Price Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Steve Price]

Here are Carl's photos. I think they're in the order that he mentions them above.

Steve Price

PS - Carl - Please edit your User Name; I assume that your name is Carl Gray. Thanks.

[Joel Greifinger Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Joel Greifinger]

Hi Carl,

Your bag faces are of a somewhat common Kurdish type presumed to have been woven in Iranian Kurdistan. From what I can tell, they both appear to be double-wefted (i.e., have two or more weft shots between rows of knots). And while this type generally has little or no use of offset knotting, it is nonetheless sometimes attributed to Jaf Kurds. I'm skeptical that we should be that specific as to the Kurdish group who wove them.

Here are a couple that I have:





and one from Michael Rothberg's beautiful recent volume, Nomadic Visions: Tribal Weavings from Persia and the Caucasus:



Joel Greifinger

[kellyhousholder Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close kellyhousholder]

I enjoyed looking at these! I just acquired this one. I am wondering if it might be Kurdish as well? The back looks so very similar to the one

Carl Gray

Registered

Find all posts

View Profile

Close

Carl Gray posted. I also just ordered this book you mentioned. thanks!

[Carl Gray Registered Find all posts View Profile Close Carl Gray]

Thank you Steve, Joel and Kelly,
Joel, the first example of yours does share many of the same motifs, borders and layout... much cleaner though. It is useful to have a comparison example. Any idea of the age? Are natural dyes used?
Is there any way to guesstimate the age of mine? Does the weft colour difference, red/pink and brown, of mine give any clues? Is one likely to be older than the other? Am I correct in assuming that natural dyes have been used?
Steve, I am logged on right now and none of the options allow me to change user name, and you are correct it is Carl Gray. I suspect that this might be an admin function?
Best, Carl

[Steve Price Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Steve Price]

Hi Carl

I think your bags have natural dyes. They look right to me, and the corrosive black wasn't used after about 1875 except by the Baluch groups.

I changed your user name to Carl Gray. It should work when you log in again.

Steve

[Joel Greifinger Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Joel Greifinger]

Carl,

As I'm sure you're aware, both of your bag faces are missing borders and possibly other design elements. Here are some others with the complete design:







Joel

[Joel Greifinger Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Joel Greifinger]

Kelly,

I would guess that your bag face is also Kurdish from NW Persia. While the octagonal motifs in the border are used by other groups as well, they are a very frequent feature of Kurdish weaving from the region. A Jaf example:



The most striking thing for me in your bag face is that the field elements hark back to early Kurdish rugs. The central motif and flowers are reminiscent of the motifs on this Sauj Bulagh rug that has been attributed to the 17th century:



I don't recall seeing that flower rendition on a bag before.

Joel

[Carl Gray Registered Find all posts View Profile Close Carl Gray]

Thank you Steve and Joel,
the second example posted by Joel, mirrored back and front, is very close to the ones I have, and there are some differences, notably the main motifs differ in height. Dyes are more subtle than the other examples, again like mine.
Do you know what the weft colour is?
What age would you say it is?
Thanks to your I can now label them up with a better description than before.
I'll try to upload an image of another Kurdish bag I got at the same time now.
Best, Carl

[Steve Price Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Steve Price]

Hi Carl

I'd guess the age as late 19th century. The corroded black virtually eliminates anything much more recent. There are lots of Caucasian rugs that are 100 years more recent that have had the blacks shaved, but it's easy to tell the difference between shaved and corroded by just rubbing a finger over it. Corroded blacks will virtually disintegrate when you rub them.

Steve

[Steve Price Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Steve Price]

This is another image that Carl sent me.

Thanks, Carl.

Steve Price

[Joel Greifinger Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Joel Greifinger]

Hi Carl,

That bag face fragment has lovely colors. It too is a classic Kurdish khorjin design. The figures that look vaguely like two-headed dragons are derived from the saz leaves in the herati pattern. Here is one that has an elem:



And still another with those strangely zoomorphic leaves:



Joel

[Carl Gray Registered Find all posts View Profile Close Carl Gray]

Thank you Joel,
I can label that one up as well!.
It is very psychedelic isn't it!
No apparent corrosion on the dark brown. Does that tell me anything about approximate age?
KInd regards, Carl

[patrick weiler Member Find all posts View Profile Close patrick weiler]

Here is the one in my collection. It has been collecting dust on the seat of my recliner for 25 years or so. Most likely some of the colors are synthetic. I suspect a pre WWII era production. The panels are of different sizes than the typical examples with a larger central band and smaller end bands. The back shows some of the typical Kurdish brocade and complementary weft work: