A question for Chuck Wagner

[Phil Smythe Member Find all posts View Profile Close Phil Smythe]

Hello Chuck,

In post #3 in this thread………. http://www.turkotek.com/VB56/forum/m...kmen-or-baluch ……...you said, when referring to a photo I posted there “The motifs on this piece (and in particular the "S" with the small bars) are typical of production from the Kizlayak clan living in the region of Sheberghan in northern Afghanistan.”

Given that same S with a vertical stroke through it ( a dollar sign $ as it were) appears in this rug, would you also say this piece is Kizlayak? And from Nth Afghanistan? Or?

Just trying to get a handle on the $, as seen it on a few rugs now that were purported to come from further north (i.e. Turkmenistan).

TIA for your (or anyone's) input.


Cheers all, Phil

[Chuck Wagner Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Chuck Wagner]

Hi Phil,

I need to dig up a few images; I'll get back to you this week sometime.

Cheers
Chuck

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

The middle motif section looks very northern Afghanistan to me. It reminds me of a rugs made in the Kunduz area.

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

Also, while awaiting Chuck’s response, search “Mina Khani Juval” here on this site. There is a lot of info from 2007. I’m on my phone and can’t figure out how to copy the link for you.

[Phil Smythe Member Find all posts View Profile Close Phil Smythe]

Also, while awaiting Chuck’s response, search “Mina Khani Juval” here on this site. There is a lot of info from 2007. I’m on my phone and can’t figure out how to copy the link for you.

Thanks Joe, but I only used that photo as an example, not to try an find more info on Mina Khani designed rugs. That is, I just wanted to clarify what Chuck had said previously (in the other thread) re the $ motif in the borders (seen above, and in photo in other thread); that is whether that $ specifically denotes (when seen on any 'Turkoman' type rug) a Kizlayak northern Afghan origin, or is also seen in rugs from 'Turkmenistan' itself. So I am looking more at what the $ relationship to an area / tribe may be, as opposed to the overall design itself as it were.

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

Oops! Thank you for the clarification. I am always eager to try to help.

[Phil Smythe Member Find all posts View Profile Close Phil Smythe]

Oops! Thank you for the clarification. I am always eager to try to help.

Hi Joe,

Interestingly, when I did a search here for ‘Mina Khani Juval’ the only result I got was............................for those terms in your above post!

But an off-board Google search however turns it up; http://www.turkotek.com/misc_00084/minakhani.htm

And what an interesting thread it was / is. Certainly a very active forum back then!

Of the myriad Mina Khani's seen there I found only three (and a couple of closeups) with the ‘$’ in the border, which I'll post below, but did not find, or missed, any specific comment on same.

[Chuck Wagner Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Chuck Wagner]

Hi Phil,
Sorry for the wait; it's a busy life right now.

The short answer to your question "would you also say this piece is Kizlayak?" is: I think it's highly likely a Kizl Ayak piece, and maybe also from Kizilayak, but...

The "but" being a qualification for somewhat older pieces. Thee are three topics to consider: The "$" motif vs the "S" motif, Kizlayak vs non-Kizlayak, and Kizl Ayak vs Beshir/Ersari.

Not in order:

Kizl Ayak is a tribe, and Kizilayak is a place. The tribe is/was distributed along the middle-to-upper Amu Darya in both Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan, and in NE Afghanistan, including at Kizilayak. Some authors bundle them into the Ersari catch-all bin.

The "S" motif is common on rugs from all over central Asia and the greater Middle East, alone or inside various shapes like diamonds or hexagons, in borders or sprinkled in the field. The "$" motif, on the other hand, is - to me - a strong indicator of NE Afghan origin. And particularly, when that motif is bi-colored or has arrow/diamond terminators on the vertical bars, a Kizilayak regional trait.

Both Dick Parsons and George O'Bannon have published books on Afghan rugs, which I rely on for most of my judgement on this matter. That, and personal interactions with Dick Parsons regarding a piece we own with the "S" on it. O'Bannon was a Peace Corps official who lived in Afghanistan for several years and travelled widely, studying rugs. Parsons worked for OCM (London) as a buyer and had intimate knowledge of rug structures and origins, as he bought in markets and directly from local ateliers. O'Bannon shows a prayer rug with the "$" motif and calls it of Saltiq (Saltuq) tribal origin, based on his understanding ot tribal structures at the time. But he locates them at Aq Chah Sheberghan. Parsons goes into more detail, pointing out that Kizilayak is the central village of a dozen or so that are about 45 minutes NNW of Sheberghan and the locus of Kizilayak production. He places the Saaltuq in Aq Chah. Both have images in their books (below).

Separately, your piece (without the "$") would immediately be classified as a Beshir piece with alma guls (essentially the same motif in Mina Khani work) . The Beshir are considered a subset oif the Ersari, essentially meaning no one knows for sure but they were Turkmen living in the upper reaches of the Amu Darya who wove these distinct chuvals - or - production by the Ghaba Saqal tribe in the Imam Saheb region north of Kunduz, who Parsons also notes as borrowing that motif from the Beshirs. With the "$" it says Kizl Ayak to me, probably Kizilayak, and almost certainly NE Afghanistan (keep in mind that borders and nations, are for westerners, and dictators), and of no importance to nomads).

The "Beshir" topic has been discussed severaal times here; you can browse/search the archives ad infinitum.

A few images below. (outer minor borders)

Regards
Chuck

From O'Bannon:









From Parsons:

[Phil Smythe Member Find all posts View Profile Close Phil Smythe]

Thank you for your explanative input Chuck. Now its my turn to apologize for the slow response. Shame how life gets in the way of ‘other things’ that you’d like to do, as opposed to ‘have to do’.

Anyway, just one question when you have time, no hurry. You said “Separately, your piece (without the "$") would immediately be classified as a Beshir piece with alma guls (essentially the same motif in Mina Khani work).”

I assume you mid the middle photo of the three pics I posted (in my post just prior to yours above)?

And again, thanks for your input!!!

Phil

[Chuck Wagner Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Chuck Wagner]

Hi Phil,

No, that's not what I meant. I was referring to the first image you posted, but I guess could have done a better job of wordsmithing.

What I meant was, if that first piece had any other normal minor Turkman border -rather than the "$" border - it would be considered a Beshiri - or Ersari - piece.

Regards
Chuck

[Phil Smythe Member Find all posts View Profile Close Phil Smythe]

Thanks Chuck, understood.

By the way, what type of knot would you expect in Kizil Ayak work?