What do you make of this pair of Torbas?

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

I recently bought these from an online site because the price was too good to pass up and it was sold as a pair which is uncommon. Obviously someone along the way shortened the Torbas to make fringes….a practice I don’t like but it’s there. Also, the bag front fringes have been cut off and most of the base is still there in parts.
One tag I found hidden under the import tag says it’s a Turkoman Balouch. I’m not sure if that is correct or not and have to admit, the design on these I haven’t seen nor came across in my past research. Any help with a tribe attribution and possible 25-50 year window of being made would be highly appreciated. Each are approximately 40x90 cm.

[PaulSmith Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PaulSmith]

Hi Joe,

No, not Baluch. I think they're Yomut Turkmen, but I don't think they're old. The design/drawing is definitely Yomut, and the knotting is symmetrical... the tag claiming that they're Persian fits, too (lots of Yomut folks in NE Iran). But the kepse guls and the border, while definitely based on traditional Yomut designs, are not quite right--go look at some antique Yomut kepse gul torbas and you'll see what I mean. The colors are a little peculiar (though nice), too... not traditional, and fortunately not the bleeding colors of the early 20th-c. examples, but I think these are recent work. My guess is second-half 20th century.

Regards, Paul

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

Thank you Paul. After a little research today thanks to Google (lol) I too agree on Yomut. The borders on the older ones normally have a running dog motif which is missing here. They also look “newer” in my opinion. I am still happy with the find and will probably give one each to my kids.

[Steve Price Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Steve Price]

Hi Joe

I don't see anything Belouch about them. To my eye, they're obviously Yomud. The main border isn't unusual for Yomud work; the "running dog" is more typically used for guard borders. The aggressive blue is attractive, but out of place in the Yomud tradition. My guess about the age is the same as Paul's.

Incidentally, they're almost surely a pair. The way they came off the loom would have been one pile face, its plainweave back, the plainweave back of the second one, then the second face. If you run your hand along the short dimension of the faces, you'll find that they offer much more resistance in one direction than the other. The direction of least resistance is toward the end woven first.

Steve Price

[Chuck Wagner Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Chuck Wagner]

Hi Joe,

One other note; the tag stating that the piece was woven in Iran: The Yomut have lived along the shore of the Caspian Sea for centuries, including far northeast Iran, south of the Turkmenistan border. A port city is even named for the Turkmen; Bandar-e Torkaman (bandar = port). Many Turkmen tribes had a presence in Iran over time, but in modern Iran the largest group is the Yomut.

Regards
Chuck

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

Thank you Chuck and Steve for your insightful comments. My favorite thing about these two pieces are the hint of green used sparingly. I too questioned the Balouch notion and just keep an open mind that many dealers are not experts.

[Chuck Wagner Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Chuck Wagner]

Joe,

You're welcome. For completeness, and kindred spirit, here are a couple images of a similar piece that we have. My sense is that the side straps and fringe are not original and have been added in the mid-to-late 20th century, but I think the piece itself dates back to early 1900's. But that's just a guess. The palette is different but it does have a nice green as well. The rendering suggests that the weaver's planning skills were still under development, or that the memorized knot pattern functions as a one-size-fits-all-except-when-it-doesn't-fit-in-which-case-too-bad-do-it-anyway...

Regards
Chuck

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

Wonderful piece! Thank you for sharing.

[Phil Smythe Member Find all posts View Profile Close Phil Smythe]

..........The design/drawing is definitely Yomut, and the knotting is symmetrical.

Hi Paul,

How do you tell that the knots are symmetrical? I can only assume from the photo showing the back? Pardon being ignorant on this issue but.............although I can tell it is not an asymmetric knot open left, how does one discern (from the back) that it is a symmetric knot (and not an asymmetric open right)?

Attached a cropped image of the back from Joes first post.

[PaulSmith Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PaulSmith]

Hi Phil,

I could come up with a high-falutin'-sounding method, but really... The piece was obviously Yomut, and they used the symmetrical knot. When I looked at the back (particularly the elem), the knots looked symmetrical--the nodes were pretty much lined up. So I went with it.

Cheers, Paul

[Phil Smythe Member Find all posts View Profile Close Phil Smythe]

Thanks for your reply Paul. Please don’t think I was trying to start an argument re this particular rug. I am a novice in the rug world and am just seriously trying to determine for my own benefit how to differentiate the various knots (symmetric, asymmetric open right and asymmetric open left) when looking at photos of the back of rugs.

So rather than hijack this thread I’ll start a new thread with my question and hope that someone there will be able to help me out.

Again, thanks for your reply.

Phil

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

Chuck, you posted a fine older example of the pieces I have. Would it be possible to more pics of the side bands and bottom fringes to include a pic of the entire piece to include the bottom tassels? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Chuck Wagner Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Chuck Wagner]

Joe

I need to find the images, so probably on the weekend

Chuck

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

Thank you!

[Chuck Wagner Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Chuck Wagner]

Hi Joe,

As requested. If you look carefully, you can see that the side straps have been lashed to the original selvage, and the fringe has been added with a needle. Both postdate the original construction, as their colors suggest.

Regards
Chuck