Turkmen or Baluch?

[Chuck Wagner Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Chuck Wagner]

Hi Mikko,

It's money well spent, just for the travelogue essays. The rug info is priceless for afficionados of that genre. We have quite a few pieces from Afghanistan - not just the red ones, but from many other different weaving groups. His comments were helpful in pinning down attributions for our pieces. There's another book, The Turkoman Carpet, by George O'Bannon that overlaps with some material in Parsons but shows and duscusses additional classes as well - and focused on Afghanistan. Their time in-country overlapped and they were acquainted with each other. I think O'Bannon is a little more lyrical and subjective, and Parsons more systematic and better documented, but both have nice photos and interesting discussions.

Regards
Chuck

[Mikko Saikku Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Mikko Saikku]

Hi Chuck et al.,

I have both books--and agree that they are indispensable for anyone interested in 20th century Afghan rugs. It was nice to learn that one of my childhood favorite rugs at my grandparents' place was a Chakesh...

Best,

Mikko

[Marc Sahli Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Marc Sahli]

The floral border is on tbl LXXXVIII (V. G. Moshkova), Nr. 13, called 'Dshudur', used by Tsharshangu people (Ersari?). But I think that in this forum I don't need to say that the tribal patterns 'perverted' in the XX. century.

[Phil Smythe Member Find all posts View Profile Close Phil Smythe]

Hi Phil,

The motifs on this piece (and in particular the "S" with the small bars) are typical of production from the Kizlayak clan living in the region of Sheberghan in northern Afghanistan.

Regards
Chuck

Hello Chuck / everybody,

Chuck, sorry for my late return to this thread but just able to acquire a couple of closeup photos from the back of the bag in my original post showing the knotting “method” used. So would you still think Kizlayak? I thought somewhere that I read the Kizlayak knotting was not depressed at all? (But even if so, I assume there is an exception to every “rule”.)

Look forward to yours or other's expert opinion.

Thanks, Phil

[Chuck Wagner Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Chuck Wagner]

Hi Phil,

The name Kizl Ayak can refer to both places and people.

In the case of Dick Parsons' book, the place, is a cluster of villages outside of Sheberghan, a little more than 11 miles just west of due north from Sheberghan center, at the eastern edge of the drainage fan of the Darya yeh Seh Ab river, where it disappears into the desert. The people he refers to are Turkmen of the Kizil Ayak tribe in that area as well as outside Andkhoy, but with structural and motif differences between the two areas. Their typical Afghan red work is represented by the examples above.

About 72 mile NNW of Sheberghan, on the west bank of the middle Amu Darya, in Turkmenistan, is another place named Kyzylajak. And in that region as well as along the river, are Turkmen people of the Kizilayak tribe. Their work looks more like the other traditional "brownish" classic middle Amu Darya Turkmen weavings w/respect to palette, style, and weave.

So, yes, your closeup example is typical of the Afghan Kizl Ayak production.

Regards
Chuck

[Phil Smythe Member Find all posts View Profile Close Phil Smythe]

Thanks very much for your informative reply Chuck. I am just unsure (can't quite picture in my mind) exactly what you refer to though with your statement "..........in Turkmenistan, is another place named Kyzylajak. And in that region as well as along the river, are Turkmen people of the Kizilayak tribe. Their work looks more like the other traditional "brownish" classic middle Amu Darya Turkmen weavings w/respect to palette, style, and weave." Re my now underlined, would you have a photo example of what you mean by "other traditional "brownish" classic....."? Do you mean in the pile, or the warp/wefts?

And one more question, as I had said in my previous post above, I had 'heard' that Kizlayak weavings do not have depressed knots. Given mine does have (or seems to to my untrained eye), does that infer that the Kizalayak from Turkmenistan weave their carpets with 'non-depressed' knots? (Or is what I heard re Kizilayak knots not being depressed just outright wrong / an old wives - or carpet dealers - tale?)

Please pardon my ignorance on both points.

Now with that out of the way, I must say I am rather taken by the purplish blue wefts in the closeup photos I posted above!

[Chuck Wagner Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Chuck Wagner]

Hi Phil,

The structure of the Afghan Kizil Ayak work is variable. Parsons was in-country, buying for a big wholesaler, so he was working directly with the ateliers and knew the origins of most of his goods. In his book he notes that any time someone was unsure of an unfamiliar or odd design or motif, the default was: It's Kizilayak. For Afghan stuff I rely heavily on his writings and my own pieces, which he also reviewed, as well as some of what George O'Bannon has published.

The Middle Amu Darya Kizylayak work looks -nothing- like Afghan Kizil Ajak work (are you getting that the spelling is also variable depending on the ear of the listener ?), and I include a link to Ivan Sonderholm's Jozan website for an example:

https://www.jozan.net/wp-content/upl...yak-Chuval.jpg

Regards
Chuck

[PaulSmith Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PaulSmith]

Hi Phil,

My understanding is that old Kizil Ayak weaving didn't necessarily have depressed warps, but they have a distinctive texture when viewed from the back, a ribbed appearance. Here is the back of a Kizil Ayak main carpet of mine from deep in the 19th century showing the distinctive texture. Not sure how this compares to their weaving a century later, though, or whether they're even the same people at that point.



Cheers,

Paul

[Phil Smythe Member Find all posts View Profile Close Phil Smythe]

Thank you for your input Paul, especially the photo.

They are certainly what I would call 'non-depressed' knots, i.e. where both nodes of the one knot are aligned 'flat' and clearly visible.

But funnily enough it is exactly the opposite of what I would call / have been envisaging as a "ribbed appearance". I always believed, was taught - rightly or wrongly - that the more depressed one side of the knot was the more 'ribbed' was the back of the carpet. That is, if you run your fingernail across the back of the rug in my photos you get a distinct 'bumpy road / ribbed' feel. On the other hand, run your fingernail across the back of (a carpet like) yours and it is 'fairly' smooth / flat.

The only way I can even conceive of yours being referred to as 'ribbed' is from the 'look', not from a textile feel as I describe above. Is the look the criteria then?

Heading now for the bunker.

PS. Thanks also for your answer (and link to photo) also Chuck.

[PaulSmith Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PaulSmith]

Maybe I'm digging myself into a deeper hole on this "ribbed" (maybe "columns of knots" would be a better description) appearance on the back thing, but here's the back of a 19th-c. Kizil Ayak chuval that makes it a little clearer to my warped eyes.

[Chuck Wagner Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Chuck Wagner]

Hi Paul,

Ribbed is a subjective term, and when accompanied with explanatory notes (as is yours) can be understood in the context intended by the writer.

The most common use of the term, when describing rug structure, refers to the distinctly higher position of every other warp when the weft tensions alternate between high and low, creating warp depression. It is both seen and felt when running fingers across the back of the rug.

The Kizil Ayak piece you show here has little-to-no visible warp depression. A piece with full warp depression also shows no distinct ribbed character, because all the knot nodes are at the same level.

A detectable ribbed texture can exist with no warp depression if the weaver tied the knots with an asymmetry that causes one node to be consistently thicker or higher than the other, but this is usually a subtle effect.

The best example of a ribbed character is found in Saryk work, with moderate to strong - but not full - warp depression as in the image below from a Saryk chuval. It is obvious to both the eye and to the fingers.

Regards,
Chuck

[PaulSmith Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close PaulSmith]

Hi Chuck,

Thanks. That makes sense.

Whew!

Paul

[Phil Smythe Member Find all posts View Profile Close Phil Smythe]

Thanks for your further input Paul and Chuck!

I could see where you were coming from Paul (with your photo / description) re 'ribbed', I just didn't think that was, as Chuck has elaborated on, what was called ribbed is all.

Now what do you chaps make of the below. Are we seeing the two nodes of one knot, or one node of one knot with the other completely depressed? The individual nodes just look a bit too far apart to me to be from one knot as it were , but............................................I am far from an intermediatory rugophile, let alone an expert on such matters.

[Steve Price Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close Steve Price]

Hi Phil - You can't tell whether adjacent nodes are part of the same knot from the back. Turn it over and separate the pile as best you can. If the knotting is depressed you'll see it as you look deeply into the pile.

Steve Price

[Joe Lawrence Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Joe Lawrence]

This may be the longest post since the old forum. That was before my time here though. Great to see things are getting more active here.