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I seldom post here because I don't find the issues discussed to be very interesting. That being said, based on my personal experience, I doubt your piece is from the early 19th century. Nice thing though!
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Hi Andy,
Yes it's been a while and no it's not Uzbek embroidery. But thanks for keeping the tradition of not interesting going by not providing the rationale for your opinion, or your preferred date range.
Regards
Chuck
p.s. maybe this will help...
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Hi Andy,
Indeed I would like to understand what places this where in the general chronology of Tekke torbas. I find it hard to believe that pieces like this were made after the mid-19th century, but I have been unable to find a similar piece in any time period, so it is a bit of a mystery.
Along with my other wild speculations, my visit to the archived thread on 6-gul Tekke torbas led me to wonder whether the pale pink and/or rose color details in this piece could have been lac-dyed. That would explain its use as a "special material." I need to go over it one more time to make sure there's no silk or cotton anywhere.
PaulLast edited by PaulSmith; 03-29-2023, 11:36 PM.Comment
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Apologies for my rather brusque comment. I will try to explain why I don't think your piece is an early 19th century weaving. I have seen a lot of Turkmen weavings over the years and have formed some ideas about their age, identity and chronology. What I see is something from the second half of the 19th century. Generally, (very generally!) earlier pieces are more relaxed in their appearance than later ones. The composition of your piece is compressed with all the designs crammed into the space. Earlier pieces usually have more space between the designs and more scale to each element. If you compare your piece to the two Hoffmeister examples, for instance, which probably are early 19th century, I think you will see what I mean about space and scale. Also, I don't get the feeling that the women that wove your piece were very engaged with the weaving. The minor borders especially are done in a very mechanical manner and overall there is little of the improvisation in the designs often appears in earlier pieces. Overall, it looks like a very nice Turkmen weaving but I don't get an especially early "vibe" from it. Personally I think it is impossible to make any absolute statements regarding age or quality of any textiles based only on the small images seen online so please accept my thoughts as tentative. And remember that you asked for our thoughts!
Chuck: I know I am associated with Central Asia ikat and embroidery these days but for many years my main interest was Central Asian pile weavings-especially those that weren't Baluch or Turkmen. I never got a chance to publish very much but have been able to share my ideas with other collectors and researchers over the years. I am still interested in rugs so please don't feel the need to post images of late Kungrat embroidery to keep me amused :]
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Hi Andy,
No apologies necessary, I was just fishing for some elaboration. I agree with your assessment, another reason to consider more like mid-19th century.
Late ? Well, late-ish anyway. It has a handspun wool groundcloth. But several of the backings are Russian tradecloth, and there are several patches. I think this one has been around the block since the 1930's maybe. Given that with Uzbek embroidery, "early" means 1800, and late means "made last year", I'd say, middling. I can count the number of wool-ground bugzhomas I've seen on two fingers, but maybe they're more common (and recent)than what my own experience would suggest.
Cheers
Chuck
p.s. do you know anyone that can translate embroidered script on NE Afghan/SE Uzbek/W Kirghiz work ? I've got one that has me stumped; it's not Arabic for sure, verified by another reader with more skill than I have. It's a region with lots of dialects, and not so neat handwwriting...Comment
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Chuck, the Ottoman Empire was very large and slowly shrunk until it’s end in 1923. For any unusual writing that isn’t Arabic, I’d look for a Turkic translation. Unlike Arabic, it is read from right to left. I hope that helps a little.Joe LawrenceComment
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Hi Joe,
I suppose I should have posted an image as well, so here it is. This reads right-to-left, but it isn't standard Arabic.
I haven't a clue what dialect it is. I suppose that it could be the embroiderers equivalent of Greeking a block of text in a pre-publication layout.
Regards
Chuck
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Hi Andy,
Thank you for fleshing out your observations. I did indeed ask for your thoughts! There is a fair amount of improvisation in the main guls, and the c.360 kpsi surely points earlier rather than later, as do the colors, but true... it is not a "spacious drawing." I can believe that it was fancy-and-later.
Cheers, PaulComment
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