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Virtual Show and Tell Just what the title says it is.

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Old August 2nd, 2017, 07:10 PM   #1
Maurice Bjornestad
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Default Afshar ? 16 by 16 inches

Less than a novice asking for help with an ID on origin and likely time frame.

Thank You

Mo












Last edited by Maurice Bjornestad; August 2nd, 2017 at 09:15 PM.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 09:25 PM   #2
Joel Greifinger
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Hi Maurice,

It looks to be an Afghan Baluch bag made some time in the last fifty years.

Joel Greifinger
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 02:06 PM   #3
Maurice Bjornestad
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Default Thank You, Joel

I intend to follow the site/member guidance for cleaning my bag. Once done I will post before and after shots.

Thank You,

Mo
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 02:52 PM   #4
Steve Price
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Before you do, test a red section to make sure the dyes won't run when wet (they probably will). Take a small piece of cotton, dampen it, then rest it on a place that's red in an inconspicuous pasrt of the bag (the inside, for example. After 10 or 15 minutes, look for red color on the cotton. If it's red, the dye will run when you wash it and every area that's white now will be pink.

The best thing to do if the reds run is to just vacuum the surface or go over it very lightly with a slightly damp sponge.

Regards

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Old August 3rd, 2017, 03:24 PM   #5
Rich Larkin
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Hi Maurice,

You need to know that several of the colors in your bag are from synthetic dyes that do not stand up well to light exposure. Note how the inside (shielded) back section of the bag shows strong shades of red, whereas the same section on the outside looks significantly faded. I reiterate Steve's cautionary advice about wetting the colors as well.

Rich
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 11:56 PM   #6
Maurice Bjornestad
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Default Rich - Steve

I did intend to test first - but your warning makes taking time to test a critical step - thank you both for noticing my error.

Mo
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Old August 5th, 2017, 07:21 AM   #7
Kay Dee
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Not sure about others, but I often like much more the 'look' of the colors on the faded fronts of SOME older, but 'sun bleached / light faded, synthetic dyed rugs, as opposed to the garish originals colors on back.

What say you?

EDIT: Highlighted the word 'some' and 'synthetic' just to clarify that I did not mean ALL nor that I particularly like synthetic dyed rugs.

Last edited by Kay Dee; August 9th, 2017 at 08:18 AM. Reason: Clarification
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Old August 5th, 2017, 04:07 PM   #8
Rich Larkin
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Hi Kay,

Quote:
What say you?
Can't go with it. I've been brainwashed!

Rich
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Old August 10th, 2017, 09:47 AM   #9
Kay Dee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Larkin View Post
Hi Kay,

Can't go with it. I've been brainwashed!

Rich
Thanks for your honest reply Rich, and I understand completly where your coming from in you field of interest.

However, in my field of interest, i.e. tibetan and central / western china area rugs, it is if the dyer and or weaver new exactly what was going to transpire over the years as the rug aged (which I have to assume they didn't at the time of course), as some of the older, say circa late 1900's /early 20th C synthetically dyed rugs have aged beautifully with much subtler pleasing colors, whilst leaving a beautifil patina.

Of course I do not expect anyone to agree with my 'tastes' , and I do more favor naturally dyed rugs of course, but what I am (trying to imply) is that I certainly would not reject out of hand a faded synthetically dyed rug if it's palete pleased me (which of course, many don't). But some certainly do / have.

Each to his own as they say, or, different strokes for different blokes.

Last edited by Kay Dee; August 10th, 2017 at 03:35 PM. Reason: Clarification
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Old August 11th, 2017, 04:48 PM   #10
Patrick Weiler
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Kay,

While purists will disdain any weaving with synthetic dyes, they do provide some clues about when these weavings were made. Not all synthetic dyes faded like fuchsine, which was first produced in 1858. "The first human-made organic aniline dye, mauveine, was discovered serendipitously by William Henry Perkin in 1856, the result of a failed attempt at the total synthesis of quinine. Other aniline dyes followed, such as fuchsine, safranine, and induline." And not all rugs or bags produced post-mauvine incorporate synthetic dyes. Quite often, a bit of fuchsine in a piece does not distract from the overall appearance. What you are discussing is what happens when multiple dyes have faded, resulting in a muted look that is not unappealing in and of itself. Few collectors will allow a piece like that into their home, assuming somehow that it will infect the rest of their collection.

Often, "repairing" a rug with obviously synthetic colors, by removing and replacing the individual knots, was done to make many pieces not only saleable, but to increase their value. The vast majority of collector's pieces were made in the synthetic era, and the belief is that naturally dyed pieces somehow retain a purity of lineage, tradition and virtue. Once it became evident that some synthetic dyes tended to fade or change color, the reaction in some weaving areas was extreme. Persia banned synthetic dyes in 1903. Chrome and other dye types can be more stable to light and water and their appearance can be indistinguishable from natural dyes, so a lot of rug collectors probably have pieces with synthetic dyes and will never know it. If we all only collected bags and rugs from the pre-synthetic era, it would result in a very small community of wealthy collectors competing for the same small pool of pieces, each eagerly awaiting, or even inducing, the demise of their competition to free up the few, coveted pieces extant.

So, acquire what pleases you, while learning about the cultures, regions, tribes and history of this fascinating subject.

Patrick Weiler
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Old August 11th, 2017, 05:32 PM   #11
Steve Price
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Hi Patrick

Although the first synthetic dye was produced in a laboratory in 1856, use of synthetics in rugs took a while and probably was negligible in workshop products until about 1875 and in more remote areas until about 1900. Some Belouch groups were still using natural dyes exclusively until World War II, which is one of the reasons attributing dates in that group is so dicey.

The psychology of collecting antiques isn't entirely rational, and many collectors fantasize about connecting with exotic cultures by doing so. Natural dyes, handspun wool and hand weaving are all part of that. The aesthetic is learned, not innate. We forget that there are far more machine made floor coverings made with synthetic dyes and synthetic fibers than antique rugs and carpets, and that most consumers prefer the aesthetic of wall-to-wall broadloom carpets to any of our treasures.

Steve Price
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Old August 12th, 2017, 06:28 AM   #12
Kay Dee
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Thanks for the input gents!

First, can some one please briefly explain the difference then in the different dye term types referred to variously as 'synthetic', 'analine', 'chrome', etc? Pardon my ignorance but I thought they all meant / referred to 'chemical' dyed rugs as it were, and hemce covered what was used to dye all non natural dyed rugs. But is there a difference in the base 'chemical' composition for each of the above terms?

Secondly, just to be clear, my point wasn't meant to mean one or two 'synthetic' dyes in an otherwise naturally dyed rug, that have themselves faded while the nats held the original color. I agree that looks rather horrible.

And again, I am / was specifically talking about rugs in my field only (i.e Tibet, etc) and the number of rugs made circa 1900's and after with 'synthetic' dyes, that have gradually and pleasantly faded over the years.

As for the purist, a pox on them and I hope a synthetically dyed rug, after reading the slander heaped on him (or her), ups and walks into their home one day, so the so-called purist will actually see that not only is it totally non-infectious, neither to the collector himself and his rugs of pure character.

And last but not least, as I said I much prefer nat dyes but................. ...have bought the odd synthetically dyed rug over the years whose pallet pleased me greatly. (And I can attest to the fact that it did not in any way, contaminate my other nat dyed rugs, nor me.

TIA
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Old August 12th, 2017, 01:45 PM   #13
Chuck Wagner
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Hi Kay,

For some rainy day reading on dyestuffs and related disagreements, try these:

http://www.turkotek.com/salon_00129/salon.html

http://www.turkotek.com/misc_00004/discussion.htm

Regards
Chuck Wagner
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Old August 12th, 2017, 04:12 PM   #14
Marla Mallett
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For any collector of art objects, the primary concerns are normally superb aesthetics and competent craftsmanship. With rugs and textiles we naturally tend first to consider the power and development of the imagery. That includes excellent composition, clear articulation of the forms, sensitive combination of various elements, and a pleasing palette.

But craftsmanship is a crucial element in judging aesthetics—not to be overlooked. In textiles, that means not only skillful weaving and finishing, but also choosing appropriate materials for the object. It includes carefully selecting and processing the fibers, spinning them appropriately for the scale and purpose of the object, and selecting and processing high quality dye materials for those yarns. It includes following proper dye processes. The stability and durability of the dyes is an essential consideration for any competent craftsman.

To make any judgment about a textile or rug—or any art object—it is important that we understand the original artist’s vision and intent, not some later altered or faded version of it. Weavers working 150 years ago with all natural dyes used a full range of colors: not just strong primary and secondary colors, but also tints and shades of those hues. They mixed hues to achieve intermediate and greyed tonalities, including near neutral tones to act as foils for the boldest colors. A major problem with synthetic dyes used throughout the 20th century was that too many weavers used them straight from the packets which they purchased; thus they produced garish items with few subtleties. There is something terribly wrong if we can only enjoy a weaving if it needs “fading” to become tolerable. And even if it does then become acceptable, we are not seeing what the artist intended. It is not “art” but something else.

Marla Mallett

Last edited by Marla Mallett; August 12th, 2017 at 04:49 PM.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 09:25 PM   #15
Kay Dee
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Thanks, for the input Chuck.

Marla, beauty remains, and always will, in the eye of the beholder.

And with all due respect, one can choose / appreciate whatever they want to call art, not what a 'purist' says it is / or says it has to be, no offence intended. SÚ, although I have no intent of arguing the point, I respectfully disagree with your point / position. Enough said.

Last edited by Kay Dee; August 13th, 2017 at 10:07 AM. Reason: Clarification
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Old August 13th, 2017, 02:40 PM   #16
Marla Mallett
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Aestheticians may disagree among themselves on various points while non-aestheticians may stubbornly cling to their own preferences, likes and dislikes. But in judging CRAFTSMANSHIP there are objective standards that apply to every hand-crafted object.

Marla Mallett
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Old August 13th, 2017, 04:54 PM   #17
Kay Dee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marla Mallett View Post
Aestheticians may disagree among themselves on various points while non-aestheticians may stubbornly cling to their own preferences, likes and dislikes. But in judging CRAFTSMANSHIP there are objective standards that apply to every hand-crafted object. Marla Mallett
My, my, my, such a holier than thou (and rather condescending) attitude Marla. I am stirred - but certainly not shaken Ė as itís just not an attitude I would have expected from you! Your narrow minded view really surprises me. But of course, you canít judge a book - or a rug in some instances - by looking at its cover - although I do like yours (book that is).

Seems no matter how polite / explanatory of ones view one tries to be, you seem not to be able to get down off your high horse to even contemplate that their just might be a contrary view than your own ingrained opinions, or God forbid, should some mere mortal dare not follow them. Oh well, I guess thatís what happens to some folk when they get Ďfamousí and think they have a reputation to uphold and their Ďviewí is the only view. Anyway, que sera, sera. Letís just leave this butting of heads at that, shall we Marla.

To others, I apologize on my (and Marlaís) behalf for hijacking this thread, as it was not my intent at all.

So like I said above, as far as I am concerned anyway, letís leave it (this offshoot discussion) at that.

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Old August 13th, 2017, 06:30 PM   #18
Filiberto Boncompagni
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