Yomut Chuval Frag Ronnie Sale 2

Michael Gordon Rosenthal · January 15th, 2019, 06:15 PM

This distressed chuval was one of my favorite items from the second Ronnie Newman sale at Skinners. My wife noted that it proves I'm a lunatic, and she could well be correct. I'm very interested in other's thoughts about it.

Steve Price · January 15th, 2019, 08:27 PM

Hi Mike

That's a fabulous piece; it shines through the wear and damage. I hope some of our incipient Turkomaniacs will notice the plump, well spaced main guls, the excellent drawing of the borders, and the balance of the colors.

I'm not at all confident about age attributions, but this one does have an air of great age about it.

Regards, and thanks for sharing it.

Steve Price

Joy Richards · January 15th, 2019, 09:58 PM

For what it's worth, coming from me, I think it's absolutely gorgeous, and Steve's right. Its beauty shines through the wear and damage.

Marvin Amstey · January 16th, 2019, 01:07 PM

Steve said it all
My guess: circa 1800
Ronnie had a very good eye.
Enjoy!

Michael Gordon Rosenthal · January 16th, 2019, 04:26 PM

Thanks, Steve, Joy, and Marvin for your comments. Here's what I believe is a similar example for Reuben's Guls and Gols II:

I wonder if the minor guls indicate an Igdyr attribution?

Phil Bell · January 16th, 2019, 10:15 PM

Contrary to your Wife's opinion, I think this proves you very sane and that you have a great eye. It is beautiful and I would have bought it and asked the price afterwards.

Phil

Marvin Amstey · January 16th, 2019, 10:26 PM

Interesting question Michael.

I can find no examples of this minor gul when searching for Igdyr pieces in my books or in Google.
The more I was looking at all minor guls in Yomut (and subtribe) rugs, I came to the conclusion that the minor gul on your piece is a "dumbed down" version of the more common - and more detailed - minor guls. If that is correct, I would guess that your piece is younger than I thought, but this is not in keeping with the otherwise old age that is implied in your piece.
A new mystery

Chuck Wagner · January 16th, 2019, 11:50 PM

Marvin,

There is a compelling analog in Jurg Rageth's book Turkmen Carpets: A New Perspective, Vol. 1.

See plate 104, page 222 with an example of a Yomut rug attributed to the Gorgan/Atrek Plain or Astarabad.

It seems that late 18th - early 19th century is reasonable based on design similarities.

There is also a chuval example, less similar but the same date range; plate 82 on page 178.

Regards
Chuck

Michael Gordon Rosenthal · January 18th, 2019, 03:09 PM

Chuck's analogy references make a strong argument.

It is also clear from the other period pieces that there is a regal quality in the 18th century pieces that is mostly absent in later work.

He's another 12 gul from Ronnie Newman that seems to be from about the same period, perhaps a bit later:

Michael Gordon Rosenthal · January 19th, 2019, 03:23 AM

Here is a detail of one of the pages Chuck referenced. Clearly, this non=Chemeche is an early minor gul and directly relates to the minor gul of the chuval in this discussion. I believe this referenced gul is earlier since it has curvilinear elements at the tips of the guls, which would place it well into the 18th century. It would be nice to see other examples in main carpets and other weavings. The small rectangles in the field of the major guls relate to the Tekke major gul and would indicate a very early date.

Here is another main carpet example from Christies. Note that the minor border, small, alternating yellow and white square relate to the chuval as well:

January 20th, 2019, 05:12 PM

My apologies for lack of being fully registered but i noticed mikes post. Thats a lovely chuval and id date it 1800 border guards are very similar to the christies main carpet. It bears an uncanny resemblance. I had the pleasure of owning the christies piece for a number of years and yours has a very similar feel. The rageth book and the example in the upfold collection show the same design elements. Certainly not a crazy purche

Steve Price · January 20th, 2019, 05:29 PM

Hi

Thanks for your comments.

Not being registered isn't a problem, but I'd be grateful if you overwrite the word "unregistered" in the User Name field with your name when you post.

Thanks.

Steve Price

Michael Gordon Rosenthal · January 20th, 2019, 06:57 PM

The Christie's main carpet is a grand example of the Zenith of Turkmen weaving.

January 15th, 2019, 06:15 PM	#1
Michael Gordon Rosenthal Members Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: San Francisco Bay Area Posts: 5	Yomut Chuval Frag Ronnie Sale 2 This distressed chuval was one of my favorite items from the second Ronnie Newman sale at Skinners. My wife noted that it proves I'm a lunatic, and she could well be correct. I'm very interested in other's thoughts about it.

January 15th, 2019, 09:58 PM	#3
Joy Richards Members Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 45	Understandable lunacy For what it's worth, coming from me, I think it's absolutely gorgeous, and Steve's right. Its beauty shines through the wear and damage.

January 16th, 2019, 04:26 PM	#5
Michael Gordon Rosenthal Members Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: San Francisco Bay Area Posts: 5	A Similar Example Detail Thanks, Steve, Joy, and Marvin for your comments. Here's what I believe is a similar example for Reuben's Guls and Gols II: I wonder if the minor guls indicate an Igdyr attribution?

January 18th, 2019, 03:09 PM	#9
Michael Gordon Rosenthal Members Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: San Francisco Bay Area Posts: 5	Minor Gul Comparison Chuck's analogy references make a strong argument. It is also clear from the other period pieces that there is a regal quality in the 18th century pieces that is mostly absent in later work. He's another 12 gul from Ronnie Newman that seems to be from about the same period, perhaps a bit later: Last edited by Michael Gordon Rosenthal; January 21st, 2019 at 11:29 PM. Reason: Another 12 gul Chuval reference piece

January 19th, 2019, 03:23 AM	#10
Michael Gordon Rosenthal Members Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: San Francisco Bay Area Posts: 5	Chuck's Reference Minor Gul (Detail) and Christie's Example Here is a detail of one of the pages Chuck referenced. Clearly, this non=Chemeche is an early minor gul and directly relates to the minor gul of the chuval in this discussion. I believe this referenced gul is earlier since it has curvilinear elements at the tips of the guls, which would place it well into the 18th century. It would be nice to see other examples in main carpets and other weavings. The small rectangles in the field of the major guls relate to the Tekke major gul and would indicate a very early date. Here is another main carpet example from Christies. Note that the minor border, small, alternating yellow and white square relate to the chuval as well: Last edited by Michael Gordon Rosenthal; January 19th, 2019 at 05:36 PM. Reason: Additional detail and another example

January 15th, 2019, 08:27 PM	#2
Steve Price Administrator Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 121	Hi Mike That's a fabulous piece; it shines through the wear and damage. I hope some of our incipient Turkomaniacs will notice the plump, well spaced main guls, the excellent drawing of the borders, and the balance of the colors. I'm not at all confident about age attributions, but this one does have an air of great age about it. Regards, and thanks for sharing it. Steve Price

January 16th, 2019, 01:07 PM	#4
Marvin Amstey Members Join Date: May 2008 Location: Fairport, NY Posts: 38	Steve said it all My guess: circa 1800 Ronnie had a very good eye. Enjoy!

January 16th, 2019, 10:15 PM	#6
Phil Bell Members Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 10	Contrary to your Wife's opinion, I think this proves you very sane and that you have a great eye. It is beautiful and I would have bought it and asked the price afterwards. Phil

January 16th, 2019, 10:26 PM	#7
Marvin Amstey Members Join Date: May 2008 Location: Fairport, NY Posts: 38	Interesting question Michael. I can find no examples of this minor gul when searching for Igdyr pieces in my books or in Google. The more I was looking at all minor guls in Yomut (and subtribe) rugs, I came to the conclusion that the minor gul on your piece is a "dumbed down" version of the more common - and more detailed - minor guls. If that is correct, I would guess that your piece is younger than I thought, but this is not in keeping with the otherwise old age that is implied in your piece. A new mystery

January 16th, 2019, 11:50 PM	#8
Chuck Wagner Administrator Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 163	Marvin, There is a compelling analog in Jurg Rageth's book Turkmen Carpets: A New Perspective, Vol. 1. See plate 104, page 222 with an example of a Yomut rug attributed to the Gorgan/Atrek Plain or Astarabad. It seems that late 18th - early 19th century is reasonable based on design similarities. There is also a chuval example, less similar but the same date range; plate 82 on page 178. Regards Chuck

January 20th, 2019, 05:12 PM	#11
Unregistered Guest Posts: n/a	Chuval gul piece My apologies for lack of being fully registered but i noticed mikes post. Thats a lovely chuval and id date it 1800 border guards are very similar to the christies main carpet. It bears an uncanny resemblance. I had the pleasure of owning the christies piece for a number of years and yours has a very similar feel. The rageth book and the example in the upfold collection show the same design elements. Certainly not a crazy purche

January 20th, 2019, 05:29 PM	#12
Steve Price Administrator Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 121	Hi Thanks for your comments. Not being registered isn't a problem, but I'd be grateful if you overwrite the word "unregistered" in the User Name field with your name when you post. Thanks. Steve Price

January 20th, 2019, 06:57 PM	#13
Michael Gordon Rosenthal Members Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: San Francisco Bay Area Posts: 5	Christie's Example The Christie's main carpet is a grand example of the Zenith of Turkmen weaving. Last edited by Michael Gordon Rosenthal; January 25th, 2019 at 01:36 AM.