Turkotek Discussion Forums http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/ A place where rug enthusiasts can connect en Fri, 24 May 2013 04:06:06 GMT vBulletin 60 http://turkotek.com/VB37/images/misc/rss.jpg Turkotek Discussion Forums http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/ Symbolic Behavior http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1856&goto=newpost Sat, 18 May 2013 19:47:38 GMT Hi Benjamin, you suggested fun – lets get started then. However, twelve associations are beyond my strength. This is as far as I am getting: ... Hi Benjamin,

you suggested fun – lets get started then. However, twelve associations are beyond my strength. This is as far as I am getting:

Total (in order): Bed, Earth, Cosiness, Comfort, Harmony, Chaos, Passion, Fleas

Detail (just one): Creepy Crawlies

Function or Purpose:
As an underlay for sitting / sleeping
Getting rid of last year’s surplus wool
Doing what one has to do / the way of live

Regards,

Horst ]]> Mini-Salon 30: Archetypical Symbols in Rugs and Flatweaves? by Benjamin Tholen Horst Nitz http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1856 Carpet identification help http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1853&goto=newpost Wed, 15 May 2013 16:44:54 GMT Hello, I need some help to identify this large carpet: 6 meters x 2,07 meters. Number knots is very low, symmetrical, and wool is short, have seen... Hello,

I need some help to identify this large carpet: 6 meters x 2,07 meters. Number knots is very low, symmetrical, and wool is short, have seen nothing comparable in my books or in the net, it look to me as strange mixture: herati / boteh / tree of life … contrast between the center and the border. Any help or comment would realy be appreciated!







I also have question on it’s dying: part of the indigo border disappear (if became white) some part ok. Same thing appear on the few yellow patterns and part of brown. Does that mean different dying had been used?

Nicolas ]]> Virtual Show and Tell Nicholas_Fremau http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1853 War in the Maghreb Revisited http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1838&goto=newpost Fri, 26 Apr 2013 19:57:44 GMT Hi Philip, please accept my apologies for the very late response. Swastika romantica, a nice shot. Manhole covers seem to be given more... Hi Philip,

please accept my apologies for the very late response.

Swastika romantica, a nice shot. Manhole covers seem to be given more aesthetic consideration in your part of the world.

“Within the design which I think are mill weights, is a sukashi cruciform shape which indicates the Christian beliefs of the daimyo's retainer who ordered it and the smith who made it.(Sword slots through the inverted 'u' in the middle). The cross is displayed in this fashion because Christianity was proscribed in Japan at the time.”

This is interesting, I wouldn’t have thought it was a cross. I am a little bit lost – the tsuba is meant to protect the hand on the sword’s handle, right? Where does the mill weight come in?

Rubino is familiar to me through Jenkins’ “Lost History”. What I am most interested in is the first episode of Eastern Christian influence in Asia. Maybe you know about the Mongol helmet with Eastern Christian cross that was discovered in Japan somewhere near Kyoto, I hope to remember correctly. If I say that Eastern Christianity, and especially the Church Of the East (Assyrian, Nestorian) had a profound influence on the development and distribution of rug symbols, than that is not for being a Christian, as you seem to suspect. I am a scientist practitioner, have no hatchet with any world religion and, to me, they all are equidistant to God.

“Much in the same way one might climb into a taxi in any Middle Eastern city and have the driver surreptiously flash you a cross tattooed on the inside of his wrist. And along with the Xmas tree lights, the decals of the scantiily clad houris, there would probably be a small plastic virgin perched somewhere on the fur-lined dashboard which he would inevitably invite you to kiss.” Nice lyric ! 

”So does it follow if the crosses don't have Christian significance for the Oulad Nail or the Ait Ichaouen then they are not Christian crosses? Just as the manji in the manhole cover I pictured for you does not make the Chiba Public Works Office a nest of neo-Nazis.” Right, if you define the context like this, than they are not Christian crosses (any more). In the same way the bud and chalice schema carries no life Christian significance anymore; a millennium and a half ago the explanation given by a weaver would have been a different one.

“The weavers, it's worth repeating, offered an opinion about the significance of the motifs in a piece they had made or which had been made by a relative: Potez 25's!“
At the risk of repeating myself, it can be one thing without omitting the other: a fight of resistance theme from not too long ago on the basis of a traditional design that goes back to Roman times, bypassing the memory of modern day weavers or their near predecessors.

We know from the ‘Flute of Sand’ that in its essence, the Oulad Nail’s illustrious tradition predates their conversion to Islam; they may have been Christian once, but I doubt anybody can say this with certainty. Nor is it possible to say, whether the crosses in their tattoo go back all the way to the early centuries AD; the Golgatha arrangement probably is younger than the bud, flower, chalice schema as a visual expression of Isaiah 11,1 and also, than the mosaic-like stepped polygones with cross in the rug, that take loans from Roman formal aesthetic. Just a few corner-stones that help in organising the culture historical stage: we are talking of ancient Numidia and the Roman provinces of Mauretania Caesariensis and Tigitana; in late Roman times the region was fully Romanized; the Vandals did not essentially interrupt cultural continuity, like the Goths they were Christians themselves following Arianism; ‘African Latin’ was still spoken in the 12th century according to Arab geographer al-Idrisi; 150 miles away from early 20th century Oulad Nail territory, Christian sic! slave traders are recorded among the notables of the town (XXX Maghreb Link Wikipedia) in 10th century; all the area once was predominantly Christian, including many of the Berbers who were, however, regarded as 2nd class Christians. This has been postulated to have been their reason for throwing in their lot with the Arab conquerors early - which did not hinder those, apparently, to enslave them during their early raids into the desert. Given the Berbers involvement in the recorded history of the Mediterranean and its hinterland in antiquity it would be fallacious to assume that they independently developed a formal aesthetic in rugs that parallels Roman / Byzantine floor designs. In a nutshell, the rug that took the lead in this thread represents much of what made late antiquity special: flourishing trade and free exchange of ideas and designs all around the Mediterranean and between the far west and Syria and Assyria during the long period of Pax Romanum.

Roman and early Christian influence in the area is fact. As far as rugs are concerned, influence is very probable. If this comes as a surprise, this is because nobody so far seems to have looked into it systematically.

Regards,

Horst ]]> Virtual Show and Tell Horst Nitz http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1838 Neurotic Behavior http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1837&goto=newpost Fri, 26 Apr 2013 06:56:08 GMT Benjamin, I read your salon and a few ideas come to mind. Basic geometric designs are universal: the square; the circle; the triangle; the oval.... Benjamin,
I read your salon and a few ideas come to mind. Basic geometric designs are universal: the square; the circle; the triangle; the oval. Combinations of these will produce stars, rectangles, polygons and more. There is nothing mystical, psychological or symbolic in these shapes. They are the basic building blocks of artistic expression and occur in nature. I would be surprised if someone came up with a novel shape, but I am not mystified by any of the common versions of these basic shapes.

Turning these universal conformations into representations of animal, vegetable, mineral and metaphysical figures does not mean artists are channeling " the "collective subconscious". It only means that they are using geometric patterns to represent reality.

Anyone can decide to use a specific design to represent a deeper meaning. A circle could represent the sun. Two superimposed triangles can represent a star. A $ can represent money.

The conclusion that these basic geometric designs can subconsciously represent archetypes is unfounded. The transformation of a symbol into a cultural archetype is a conscious determination which then is passed on to the existing culture. Only then does it "take on a life of its own". One example is the swastika. It had been used for centuries in India.

Wikipedia: a tantric symbol to evoke shakti or the sacred symbol of auspiciousness. The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good" or "auspicious," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix. The swastika literally means "to be good". Or another translation can be made: "swa" is "higher self", "asti" meaning "being", and "ka" as a suffix, so the translation can be interpreted as "being with higher self".

A later culture co-opted this symbol and it now has a more base meaning.

If the Jungian position that this symbol is archetypical is correct, then both cultures would have invested it with the identical meaning.

The argument that "most mythological tales can be reduced to something like a "monomyth" that bears great similarities to the Jungian idea of individuation" is not necessarily incorrect. The belief that the symbols which characterize these "monomyths" are psychological archetypes cannot be substantiated. In my opinion, someone decided to use a design as a symbol and this is how they became synonymous with subsequent cultural traditions.
Some symbols are so directly related to their representations as to be universal, such as the sun or moon being a circle and a wave being, well, a wave, but assigning an "archetype" to these basic, visual representations is not the same as assigning more complex geometric designs a non-related yet specific meaning.

As to the rug you posted, coming up with 12 associations, while simultaneously keeping the subconscious archetype issue in mind, will be a rather complex task.
:steve:
Patrick Weiler ]]> Mini-Salon 30: Archetypical Symbols in Rugs and Flatweaves? by Benjamin Tholen Patrick Weiler http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1837 Link to the main essay http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1834&goto=newpost Wed, 24 Apr 2013 17:35:23 GMT Hi People For your convenience, here (http://www.turkotek.com/mini_salon_00030/salon.html)is a link to the main essay. Regards Steve... Hi People

For your convenience, here is a link to the main essay.

Regards

Steve Price ]]> Mini-Salon 30: Archetypical Symbols in Rugs and Flatweaves? by Benjamin Tholen Steve Price http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1834 BARE 2013: New Exhibition for antique rugs in Berlin, Germany (31 May - 2 June 2013) http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1804&goto=newpost Mon, 08 Apr 2013 12:53:41 GMT The new magazine Carpet Collector organizes a new antique rug fair in Berlin. On the weekend of 31 May to 2 June 2013 a new trade fair for antique... The new magazine Carpet Collector organizes a new antique rug fair in Berlin. On the weekend of 31 May to 2 June 2013 a new trade fair for antique rugs and textiles will be held in the heart of Berlin – in the direct vicinity of the Museum of Islamic Art on the Museum Island and many other Berlin sights.

The BARE 2013 - Berlin Antique Rugs & Textile Exhibition will be held at the Alte Münze (Old Mint). With its trendy, industrial charm, the former Berlin mint is in high demand and enjoys a good reputation throughout the city. The location is also the site of the exhibition for the Red Dot Design Award as well as events to accompany the Berlin Fashion Week and numerous art shows.

Around 30 exhibitors will be exclusively presenting antique rugs and textiles as well as old nomad pieces from the pre-commercial era.

A highlight for is the possibility to enter the strongroom of the Alte Münze. The place where the Bode collection was destroyed in World War II. Carpet Collector organizes a photo-exhibition that explains the importance of Bodes collection and tells about it end. You can find further information about the BARE 2013in the internet: www.bare-exhibition.com ]]> Announcements Tim Steinert http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1804 Uzbekhistan http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1801&goto=newpost Sun, 07 Apr 2013 08:15:26 GMT Hi All Just back from an intense 14 days roundtrip in Uzbekhistan - Taskhent, Nukus, Khiva, Bukhara, Samarkand, Fergana and Margilion. Brought... Hi All

Just back from an intense 14 days roundtrip in Uzbekhistan - Taskhent, Nukus, Khiva, Bukhara, Samarkand, Fergana and Margilion. Brought back 2500 photos (and can't wait to get back)


Magoki Attori, presentday rug museum in Bukhara

From an antique pile rug collecting perspective I don't think there is much to find in Uzbekistan. I suppose since independence from Sovjet all material has been sourced out to Istanbul and further on. What is left seems to have mostly turistic qualities (though I suppose luck can strike anywhere)

Embroideries might be another story, I am not really qualified to judge, but this one I am a bit sad about not bringing back:



The classical Timurid architecture is of course totally marvelous (even though it for for many may seem too heavily restored). The relation between architectural ornamentation and the patterns on the textiles is an interesting subject, and one of the main reasons for my going there, hoping to find minor archiectual ornamentation for example in wood or fragmented stucco. But in that sense I found nothing new, history has been hard on this area, and not much beyond the large well known sites seems to have survived. But the abundance of ceramic tile brick ornamentation to me personally makes the relation to both pile and Ikat weaving patterns self-evident.
If there is any interest I will happily post photos.

Here a piece of textile which I did bring back, a piece of machine woven cotton ikat from the sovjet time. Perhaps a bit obscure, but yesterdays commodities might be tomorrows rarities :)



- and a video from the visit of the ikat silk factory in Margilion where I found it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGYvM...ature=youtu.be

best Martin ]]> Martin Andersen http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1801 Painting in Houston MFA http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1798&goto=newpost Sat, 06 Apr 2013 02:18:32 GMT Hi all, The Houston (Texas) Museum of Fine Arts allows photography in the permanent exhibits. While wandering the galleries a couple weeks ago, I... Hi all,

The Houston (Texas) Museum of Fine Arts allows photography in the permanent exhibits. While wandering the galleries a couple weeks ago, I came upon this painting:



This is a work probably already known to Filiberto - I haven't found a prior reference to it in the TurkoArchives (but I haven't searched exhaustively). Painted and signed by Bartolomeo Bettera (Italian, 1639 - c. 1688), and entitled Still Life With Musical Instruments & dated in the 1680's.

The colors used for the carpet are oddly dark and a bit grim, but it's still a nice piece of work and worthy of note. Observe the carpet border at the far right.

From the side and at a distance, it looks like a blue ground color - up close it is a dull gray-blue, and the gloss finish makes it difficult to evaluate.

Here's a closeup. There is quite a bit of vertical relief to the paint in the carpet - a grid of raised squares (visible in the closeup); lots of texture - and the glossy finish which I presume is egg white.



Regards
Chuck Wagner ]]> 2. Geometric Rugs in Early Renaissance Paintings Chuck Wagner http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1798 MET Carpet Fragment http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1727&goto=newpost Thu, 14 Feb 2013 21:27:23 GMT Dear all, I was surfing through the Metropolitan Museum of Art’s webpage the other day, trying to find something interesting when I stumbled... Dear all,

I was surfing through the Metropolitan Museum of Art’s webpage the other day, trying to find something interesting when I stumbled across a carpet fragment with accession number: 1978.546.54. What intrigued me about this fragment was that it took me a while to figure out where on a rug it might have come from (I am a bit thick at times) and the supposed date to the 14th–15th centuries. I tried to find an email address that could be used to ask what dating method was used but found none. The description of the rug is as followed:

Quote:
This carpet fragment dates to the early period of Ottoman rule in Turkey. Its design consists of rows of hooked motifs and stylized leaves in dark blue, green, and yellow on a red ground. The interlocking hooked motifs (probably stylized vines), in particular, connect it to later carpets from western Anatolia.
My questions to you are, what later carpets from western Anatolia does it relate to? And does anyone know more about this fragment?

The fragment:



A possible reconstruction of the rug:



Link to the fragment at the MET:

http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections...ions/140010318

Best,

George ]]> 2. Geometric Rugs in Early Renaissance Paintings George Potter http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1727 The painter’s fertile imagination http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1691&goto=newpost Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:18:29 GMT Pierre, Great essays. You wrote: ---Quote--- Most of these motifs are not found in any extant carpets, which makes us wonder whether they... Pierre,

Great essays.

You wrote:

Quote:
Most of these motifs are not found in any extant carpets, which makes us wonder whether they are always faithful representations or are, in part, fruit of the painter’s fertile imagination.
One of the most influential British artists of the twentieth century, David Hockney, in the 2001 television programme and book, Secret Knowledge, is convinced that the masters of European painting used camera obscura’s from around 1420s, marking the remarkable change in painting at this time.

With David’s assumptions in the programme, the images of rugs in paintings after 1420s in European paintings are correct and mostly precise. The programme is available on YouTube in two parts, links below:

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKbFZIpNK10

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDIiVkoTik8

/ George ]]> 1. Animal Rugs in Renaissance Paintings George Potter http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1691 Link to the Main Essay http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1671&goto=newpost Sun, 27 Jan 2013 12:19:56 GMT Hi People For your convenience, here (http://www.turkotek.com/old_masters/salon_4.html)is a link to the Salon essay. Steve Price Hi People

For your convenience, here is a link to the Salon essay.

Steve Price ]]> 4. Rugs in 16th and 17th C. English Paintings Steve Price http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1671 Observations: Recent Trip to Istanbul http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1621&goto=newpost Sun, 06 Jan 2013 02:06:32 GMT Got back from a shopping foray to Istanbul a few weeks ago. Here are my observations and comparisons from when I last visited in 2006. 1. Fewer... Got back from a shopping foray to Istanbul a few weeks ago. Here are my observations and comparisons from when I last visited in 2006.

1. Fewer carpets in general. Seriously. In Arasta, Grand Bazaar, Ali Baba Cadessi, etc. while there are still many carpets to be had, there seems to be a great influx of other textiles: Suzani, caps, Chirpy, felts, etc. than when I last visited in 2006.

2. Everyone seems to have Caucasian rugs. I was quite shocked at the number of antique caucasians. In fact the supply was so large it seemed out of whack with market pricing. The quoted (not negotiated) pricing for antique pieces seemed in-line with what I would expect to pay in the New York rug district...which also seemed out of whack to me. Maybe it's because there is no "Local" market anymore. Instead anyone from anywhere can sell on the internet and command NY prices. Maybe its a Caucasian bubble. A scan of recent and upcoming auctions also reveals what seems to me to be a disprortionately large amount of Caucasians, further lending support to the bubble theory.

3. Antique Anatolians, however, were scarcer...but not so scarce. However, the prices seemed even more stratospheric. The ones I did see were quoted (not negotiated) at prices probably 20 times actual worth. Which rather insulted me.

4. They have banned smoking in restaurants which leads to a much tastier dining experience.

5. The new trams around Sultanahmet are very convenient.

6. Fewer (as in no) street touts.I guess they have found more profitable business elsewhere.

7. They removed the space shuttle gantry from the middle of Aya Sofia.

8. The municipal street dogs seem to have been replaced by street cats

9. Carpet museum is STILL not open. Apparently the space is "too moist" for carpets which have all been put into storage somewhere else. The folks I spoke to in the Arasta bazaar were rather exasperated that in 7, (or 8, or 10 years...who remembers?) whoever runs the museum has been unable to locate a new venue or install some dehumidifiers.

10. In the end, I surprised myself and didn't end up buying ANY old carpets. instead I bought two new production Caucasian designs from Konya. in this case it was tough to argue with either the price or quality ...and they look great side by side on the floor which is where they are now. I should add that I saw some new production kilims which were of just amazing quality. Better and finer in weave than anything I have seen before. Colors were impressive as well. ]]> Jeff Sun http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1621 S-Group Photo Index http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1502&goto=newpost Fri, 26 Oct 2012 14:40:59 GMT A photo blog composed by John Taylor containing a lot of Salor images with provenance... http://rugbam.blogspot.de/2012/10/an-s-group-index.html ... A photo blog composed by John Taylor containing a lot of Salor images with provenance...

http://rugbam.blogspot.de/2012/10/an-s-group-index.html

Dave ]]> Miscellaneous (rug-related) Topics David R E Hunt http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1502 Rugs at the Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1463&goto=newpost Tue, 09 Oct 2012 08:28:01 GMT The Fitwilliam Museum is one of the few places where you can both see and walk on a series of interesting Persian rugs. Most of the upstairs art... The Fitwilliam Museum is one of the few places where you can both see and walk on a series of interesting Persian rugs. Most of the upstairs art galleries have rugs on the floor, but there is no information about them in the museum's catalogues or leaflets because they are not "accessioned objects" but rather "interior decoration."

Apparently the Director of the Museum from 1908-1937 got fed up with waiting for a University Committee to meet (bi-annually over an agreeable college dinner) and allow him to spend money, so he set up the Friends of the Fitzwilliam who raised money which he could spend immediately.

http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/supp...efhistory.html

Some of the regular purchases were Persian rugs, bought just to make the place more homely rather than as art, but some of them have been around for quite a while. Lables on the back suggest the more recent ones were bought from a reputable local dealer - in the £1000-3000 price range. They are all from West Persia and are labelled as Kolyai (4) Bijar (3) Qashqai (2) Gravan (1) Toysekeran (1) Senneh (1) and Abaro (Abadeh?) (2)

A colleague of mine remembers much older and threadbare rugs on the floors of the Fitzwilliam in her youth in the 1970s, so these are the latest in a long series of purchases and pictures may exist of the galleries in earlier times with other examples.

The Fitz also has some rugs which are "accessioned objects" but these tend to be on tables or hanging on the walls rather than on the floor.

Photography is not normally allowed in the Museum, so there are no pictures of the non-accessioned rugs on the Internet, but I got permission from the Curators last weekend to photograph them and I will be posting a selection to whet your appetite for a visit. Its the ideal place to spend an afternoon for a rug enthusiast partnered with a non-ruggie who like paintings or ceramics.



]]> Paul McGhee http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1463 A timeline of kufic borders in rugs http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1420&goto=newpost Thu, 13 Sep 2012 12:38:23 GMT Hi all, The kufic rug borders are a highly interesting topic, as demonstrated by the very lively discussions in a recent thread ( which was one... Hi all,

The kufic rug borders are a highly interesting topic, as demonstrated by the very lively discussions in a recent thread ( which was one of the longest ever in Turkotek history), brilliantly led by Martin Andersen.

This type of border pattern was rather frequent in rugs painted by Renaissance Masters and I got interested in giving a look to its history.
The result of my (dilettantish) research is an obese post of unusual length, which interested readers will find below::nerd:

http://www.turkotek.com/old_masters/timeline/essay.html ]]> 3. A Tale of Three Renaissance Ruggies Pierre Galafassi http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=1420