Your advice please

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

So... I received an e-mail by Pauline Chien asking information about this runner:

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Pauli1.jpg

My first answer was 'As for your rug, I would say North-West Persia (Ferahan or Arak area), Herati pattern design, probably second quarter of the last century. Could be Kurdish too'.

Then, of course I asked for more images, especially of the back.

Here they are:

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Pauli2.jpg

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Pauli3.jpg

What do you think guys?

Filberto

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

Perusing P.R.J. Ford, Ferahans are mostly single-wefted, but this one is double-wefted.
Could it be Saruq? Or what else?

Then those main borders are quite uncommon, right? :baffled:

Filiberto

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

Or...

It could be a Karabagh - that, Pauline, means Caucasian.

Karabagh runners with this motif aren't unheard of.
That back looks very much Caucasian.
The main borders aren't Karabagh at all, though. :felix:

And I correct the age: first quarter - instead of second - looks better.

[Dinie Gootjes]

Hi Pauline, Filiberto,

With the runner format, the dark warps and the SW Persian looking "chickens" in the border, could it be Luri? Is that flat, triple selvage found on Caucasian rugs or NW Persian rugs? That finish feels to me more like tribal or village work than workshop production. I guess knowing the type of knot might help, but most of the areas we have mentioned use symmetrical ones. If they are asymmetrical, it would point to Luri, who it seems use both kinds, or another area. But it might be difficult to find out?

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

Hi Dinie,

Yup, the flat, triple selvage... That suggests Caucasian to me. Are they used in NW Persia too? I don't know.

In the meantime I received two more pictures from Pauline. She has troubles in logging in because I changed her username to her actual full name.
I asked her if she is able to distinguish the kind of knotting.
Waiting for her answer, here are the two last pictures.

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Pauli4.jpg


http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Pauli5.jpg

Those square knots looks symm to me.

Overall, I now think that it's a Karabagh.

Regards,

Filiberto

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

The knotted meshwork at the end doesn't help much. It could point either to Caucasus or to West Persia.
See Marla Mallett's article

http://www.turkotek.com/Marla/Knotted_Meshwork.pdf

[Pauline Chia]

sorry Filiberto, I have no idea how to distinguish anything 😭. This is my first purchase and totally random. The lady I bought it from said it could be Persian or Afghan and that she bought it from a vintage shop in Majorca, information which are not so helpful 😱

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

Two more detailed images from Pauline.

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Pauli6.jpg

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Pauli7.jpg

They didn't change my opinion.

Filiberto

[Chuck Wagner]

Hi all,

I would call this a Khamseh piece. I have one, with the classic "murghi" field design, and it has symmetric knots (images below). Multi-colored brown-beige wool warps are also consistent with this attribution, and the birds in the border certainly fit well with that class of weaving.

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/kham01.jpg


Symmetrical knots, pointing downward:
http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/kham03.jpg


http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/kham04.jpg

Again, symmetric knots, most visible in the lighter indigo blue knots:
http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/kham05.jpg
Regards
Chuck

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

Thanks, Chuck.

Could be, but I am not convinced. What about the selvage?

OK, I searched for borders with birds.

This should be a proper Khamseh border with birds

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Khamseh_rug_border.j pg

But I also found this one...

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Baku_Kila_border.jpg

Which is, obviously, a Caucasian. And much more similar to the one in Pauline's rug. And Pauline's rug has a more 'Caucasian' palette too.

Whatever... Do you agree with my age estimate?

Regards,

Filiberto

[Dinie Gootjes]

Hi All,

I had some more time today, so I went though all my saved pictures of SWP and NWP rugs. Not a single one had a selvage like on Pauline's rug, all the ones with original selvages had a simple wrapped bundle of warp threads. On the other hand, one of our own two Caucasians, a small Shirvan, had a selvage like Pauline's. The other one is a large Gendje with its selvages cut off :(. So I will go with Filiberto's opinion. Chuck, do you have a Khamseh with those sides? I also see them on Turkmen rugs, but if Pauline's is one of those, I will eat one of my own Ersaris for breakfast.

[Unregistered]

Hi all, going slightly off tangent, how should one clean a rug? I have seen the thread on washing but if I just want to dust off the usual dirt, can I dry vacuum the rug? Appreciate your advice. 🙏🏻

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

Hi Pauline,

When you post, remember to Log In with your name and password first (like you did above), otherwise our software will consider you as a 'Guest' and your post will go in the queue waiting for validation by us administrators.

You can vacuum clean your rug but with care and low power. The black wool is heavily corroded (effect of the die that was used) and I would avoid passing the aspirator over those spots.

Regards,

Filiberto

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

Hi Pauline,

Hi Dinie,

I think you can keep eating your cereals for breakfast. :)

Here is my Caucasian Kazak (but it could be a Gendje as well)

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/MyKazak_corner.jpg

Same selvage to Pauline's, similar brown-beige wool warps, similar semi-ridged back, similar palette.
The wefts are not visible in this photo but I could take a new one when I am back at home, in a couple of days.

Regards,

Filiberto

[Pauline Chia]

thank you Filiberto and Dinie.
may I please ask another question on this rug?
A small part of the rug has split open. Please see earlier photo from me (with my thumb in the photo). What should I do? is it urgent for me to fix it? I have a crazy idea of hand stitching it back myself until I get professional help to avoid further tear.
Meanwhile is it still ok to lay this rug on the floor and to walk on it?
sorry for all these newbie scary questions. 🤦🏻*♂️😂

[Filiberto Boncompagni2]

Well, Pauline, if you really want to use it on the floor try a temporary stitch first but take your rug to a restorer as soon as possible.

[Pauline Chia]

Hi Filiberto, thank you. Generally is it a good idea to still use a vintage rug (putting it on the floor and walking on it) or what does one usually do with it? does one store it or hang it up ?

[Filiberto Boncompagni2]

You don't enjoy a rug if it is hidden in storage :(

For my taste, your rug seems too long (by the way, how much?) to be hanged, I see it better on the floor. And in any case the split must be fixed.
It's a nice rug and in otherwise good conditions, it would be a pity to risk to ruin it if the split opens more.

[Pauline Chia]

Hi Filiberto, the rug is 445cm by 85cm. It?s very long! I will fix the tear pronto!
Thank you for your advice🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[Chuck Wagner]

Hi Filiberto,

A Caucasian rug with a Herati field design ?

:errormonkey:

Nope. Not buying that one.

I agree that the borders, in particular, do have a Caucasian look to them but that can also fit with pieces from NW Persia like from the Qareh Dāgh area.

So I would not be averse to a NW Persian attribution, were I able to find a decent analog.

Khamseh made sense to me in the context mentioned above esp. with the chickens. Plus, I have seen a couple rugs attributed as Khamseh with a Herati field pattern

Regards
Chuck