Your advice please

[Filiberto Boncompagni2]

Hi Chuck,

Uh... Do you have Bennett's 'Caucasian'?
There is a short section in the Karabagh part with the name 'Herati Pattern' or something like that. Four rugs. I think it's at page 120 or 121.
:pie:
When I go home tomorrow I will check also what I have on early Caucasians Carpets. There must be some Herati in there.
:cheers:

[Chuck Wagner]

Hi Filiberto,

Key phrase from p. 121

"This is an interesting piece, which, if it is from Karabagh..."

Jury is still out...

Ciao
Chuck

[Filiberto Boncompagni2]

Agreed.
But I found some ammunition for my argument.
More later...

[Richard Tomlinson]

Hi

Looks like it has a lot of cochineal .... could that be a pointer?

Regards
Richard

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

Hi Richard,

Like this Karabagh Shusha Herati Balyg rug you mean?

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/karabagh-herati-balyg-rug.jpg

Yes, but there is no need for that.

I have to do more work then I'll wrap it up to explain more clearly to Pauline (who is a newbie) why I think that her rug isn't NW Persia. :nerd:

Regards,

Filiberto

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

Notice the red side finish. Unfortunately there are no pictures of the back.

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/antique-karabagh-herati-balyg-corner-front.jpg

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

Ok, it seems to me that our esteemed colleague Chuck is doubting the very existence of Karabagh rugs with Herati patterns. :rant:

I already posted a prayer rug from Shusha.

To be on the safe side, let's ask for help to the distinguished scholar Richard E. Wright:

CARPET FROM SHUSHA CITY

http://richardewright.com/0301_shusha.html

excerpt from the article:
Illustrations of this rug, which is large, appear here courtesy of Dominique Chevalier. The standard Herati pattern and accompanying borders bear a clear resemblance to a similar Shusha rug photographed circa 1910, see detail.

Images:

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/shusha1.gif

This is the 1910 one:

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/shusha3.gif

I found several more Karabaghs with this design but the above ones should be sufficient, I hope :duel:

Regards,

Filiberto

[Chuck Wagner]

Hi Filiberto,

OK, your several examples are convincing. As noted earlier, I hadn't yet found good analogs, but you have.

That said, Karabagh is immediately adjacent to the Persian border and without arbitrary lines drawn by political entities the distiction between Caucasian and NW Persian evaporates.

Regards
Chuck

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

Thanks, Chuck!

Before going further, perhaps it's better to take a step back.

Pauline, when one tries to identify a rug, the obvious first thing to do is to look at the design.
Very often, however, the design doesn't help too much. Design on textiles have the habit to travel very far in space - and in time too.

The field design of your rug is called 'Herati pattern'. Meaning that it comes from Herat city, nowadays in Afghanistan. Historically and culturally Herat has been so involved with Persia that we could consider this pattern as Persian. And it has been copied/reinterpreted on rugs from Central Asia, Afghanistan, allover different weaving groups in Persia, in the Caucasus and I think in Anatolia too. We could consider it as an universal design.
For more information on the pattern, you can look here. A lot of pictures.

https://www.rugtracker.com/2014/09/on-origin-of-herati-pattern.html

Some variations are more easily identified (say, a Baluch or a Turkoman) but some of the production of NW Persia and the Caucasus could be quite similar.

So we'll have to look at the structural elements of the weave.
Like materials (wool, cotton, silk, goat hair), kind of knots (symmetrical, asymmetrical, off-set and more), number of weft shots between rows of knots, ribbed or flat backs, side finishes, end finishes, kind of dyes and I stop here :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, while some NW Persian rugs have a very distinguishable structure, it seems that a few are very similar to some Caucasians.
So, in those cases we go back to the design BUT this time we look at the borders.
The general wisdom is that tribal or 'cottage' weavers, while sometimes adapt field designs from outside of their own tradition, they tend to use more traditional patterns for the borders.

The main border of Pauline's rug was unknown to me, or so I thought. I had forgot it instead, because
after I found this

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Baku_Kila_border.jpg

I searched for more 'Baku Kila' rugs on the net and I found several of them with the same border.
One was a scan from Bennett's 'Caucasian'.

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/antique-baku-khila-buta-carpet-ian-bennett-caucasian-p290.jpg

So I went to the book and I discovered that sometime in the past I had underlined the caption of illustration 288 (not of the one above) with the sentence its extraordinary border of 'perching' birds between rosettes, a composition particularly associated with rugs of this group.
And I had totally forgot about it. :banghead:

Before the Alzheimer settles in, better to finish this task.

So, the 'unusual' border with birds is indeed Caucasian albeit a very specialized one, used on Shirvan-Baku Khila rugs exclusively (almost).
Could Pauline's rug be a Shirvan? Not a chance.

Shirvans have their own structure. They are more finely knotted than South/West Caucasians, have flat backs, very often have cotton wefts and the edges are usually overcast in white cotton.

But what the hell is doing a border like that on a Karabagh rug?

I think there is a logical explanation to that, an explanation that also can rule out a possible NW Persian
attribution for that rug. :sherlock:

But now I need a break.

[Pauline Chia]

the discussions on this thread is as exciting as watching a netflix series. I wait with bated breath for the next episode! meanwhile my rug has been rolled up as it has caused severe allergies to my husband.

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

In his last post Chuck wrote:
That said, Karabagh is immediately adjacent to the Persian border and without arbitrary lines drawn by political entities the distinction between Caucasian and NW Persian evaporates.
Exactly.
From Wikipedia:

Up to and including the early 19th century, the Southern Caucasus and southern Dagestan all formed part of the Persian Empire. In 1813 and 1828 by the Treaty of Gulistan and the Treaty of Turkmenchay respectively, the Persians were forced to irrevocably cede the Southern Caucasus and Dagestan to Imperial Russia.[35] In the ensuing years after these gains, the Russians took the remaining part of the Southern Caucasus, comprising western Georgia, through several wars from the Ottoman Empire
In the second half of the 19th century, the Russian Empire also conquered the Northern Caucasus.

Which means, Southern Caucasus wasn't under Persia anymore.

In the last quarter of 19th century Russia had a total control of the Caucasus. This period coincides with a 'golden era' of rug production, fueled by a great interest in the West for Caucasian carpets and subsequent increase in trade.

Which brings us again to Mr. Wright and his articles.

Note for Pauline: FYI, Richard E. Wright and John T. Wertime wrote a very important book 'CAUCASIAN CARPETS & COVERS the weaving culture'

Wright publishes also a very informative website with more articles on rugs and textiles:

http://richardewright.com/reports.html#toc

This one in particular is of notable relevance for my argument...

Kustar' program in Caucasia

http://richardewright.com/0906_kustar.html

This support activity was substantial, Empire-wide and continued into the Soviet period. The standard reference for Tsarist times is The Modernization of Folk Art in Russia[1]. A kustar' was a crafts person working at home (typically helped by family members) making items for sale, for peasants, an important source of income. Outside intervention came first (1885) in the form of aristocracy philanthropy, but in due course, after extensive surveys -- 17 volumes in the report -- revealed the decay of craft quality, the government began various programs: distribution of materials; training facilities; art schools (for drawing skills); stores; museums with model examples as well as sale items; exhibits at local, regional, and international expositions; and overseas outlets.
And, most important:

So that the carpets produced should have artistic merit, the Committee collects old carpet patterns, reproduces them and prepares from them working drawings that are then distributed among the kustary.

Mainly they provided the weavers with professionally dyed wood (most important of which was the blue that was very challenging to prepare at home) AND with drawings to be reproduced on rugs or other textiles.

In my humble opinion, this is a very plausible explanation of why a very obscure and specialized Shirvan-Baku border pattern could have been copied on a Karabagh rug.

Conversely, I find VERY implausible the fact that this design could have been known and adopted in 'foreign' NW Persia.

And with this, ladies and gentlemen, I rest my case.

Concluding, and reassessing a bit my attribution of Pauline's rug:

Age: beginning of 20th century (on account of those corroded black wool knots)
Origin: South Caucasus, Karabagh (perhaps Susha). But it could be from neighboring Gandja too, all considered.
Regards,

Filiberto

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

Hi Pauline,

Your husband is allergic to rugs? There is an easy way around.
DIVORCE! :monalisa:

[Pauline Chia]

Amen to your conclusion Filiberto and I am professionally cleaning my rug so I can keep both rug and husband 👏
I am doubtful I will find good professional cleaners here in Singapore and am thinking of bringing the rug with me to London where I may have better luck?
Thank you all esp Filiberto, Chuck and Dinie. To more rugs and beyond!

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

Good luck to you, Pauline.

I sense the beginning of a rug addition here... 😱🥶

Regards,

Filiberto

[James Blanchard]

Hi all,

Jumping in a bit late here, and don't have much to add, except to say I am skeptical about a Khamseh attribution. There are just too many aspects that seem not to fit, including that pink colour.

James