The "Baluch Dating Game", reprised

[James Blanchard]

Very good question, Chuck.

I have no idea what is referenced as a "semi-legible" date.

Some options?

This looks like an inscription. Not sure I see a date here.
https://live.staticflickr.co m/65535/51531942514_8e3776a0 9d_o.jpg

This might be the best candidate... with an "eye of faith", you could consider 1214 as a potential date (which is what is referenced)...
https://live.staticflickr.co m/65535/51531468413_3f4d26c3 48_o.jpg

This is just whimsy / scribbles, I think...
https://live.staticflickr.co m/65535/51531223441_4f27fa0d 1a_o.jpg

[Chuck Wagner]

Hi James

Yeah, I am not certain mind you, but I think the script says Allah al-Hakeem (the all-wise one); the darker version woven so the characters are more fluid than the lighter, and more like handwritten Arabic.

With enough dark rum the scribbles could be interpreted as a date but that wouldn't last past the end of the hangover. When numbers are writ small the rendering becomes so blocky that the 2 and 3 characters can look like that. But there's only two numerals, so if that's the case, and that would be a - really - old rug...:cheers:

Let me know when we've kicked this to death, I have a rug that I'd like to get some input from Frank on, but not at the expense of hijacking the thread. It's not old enough to justify that...

Regards
Chuck

[James Blanchard]

Hi Chuck,

Yes, it's hard for me to make out the dates, but I would guess that the black inscription is the most likely candidate for the date. In any case, this is an interesting rug "in the Baluch tradition" because it is in some ways a pastiche of various design elements / traditions, with a strong mix of Turkmen and Persian elements. As an example, the border looks to me like a refined version of a border that is found on many Baluch rugs from the Mashhad area (NE Persia). The Tekke guls are quite refined compared to some later Baluch renderings, with the addition of some gurbaghe minor guls. The two minor guard borders on either side of the main vine border are also perhaps linked to the Turkmen/Tekke design pool, and they are very balanced in their drawing. The two central medallions seem to be quite elaborate renderings from the Persian tradition, and also echoed in Afshar designs.

We see some diverse versions of Baluch birds here and there, tying it firmly to the Baluch design tradition. Note also the white flowers, with naturalistic petals, which are seen on some of the earlier versions of Mina Khani designs.

Could these be clues to an early rug in the "Baluch tradition", which is replete with examples of assimilated design elements, but with an unmistakable Baluch "aesthetic"?

Chuck, I am not sure there is such a thing as "hijacking" a Baluch thread on Turkotek. As Spooner points out, the Baluch social structure was marked by assimilation of others, unlike the rigid family / social structures of the Turkmen. Bringing in new examples that take us in various directions would fit very much into Turkotek's "Baluch tradition". :cheers:

James

[Frank Martin Diehr]

Hi all

I wonder if I can elicit a few more ideas (or speculations) on James's highly unusual dated rug. Anyone?

And, of course, as it is impossible to hijack a Turkotek thread with rug input, Chuck is also keeping me on tenterhooks, perhaps you might like to let this kitten out of the bag:

I have a rug that I'd like to get some input from Frank on, but not at the expense of hijacking the thread. It's not old enough to justify that...

Kind regards

Frank

[James Blanchard]

Hi Frank,

Not much more to report on the rug, except that I showed the date and inscription to Afghan friends. They confirmed the date as "1254", with high confidence (particularly for the first three numerals). The script was mostly inscrutable, though they both thought it might say something like "Marmal", which they thought might refer to a town. However, that might have just been inference because they know a town in N Afghanistan of that name. In any case, that's the best they could do with the inscription.

I've done more cursory reading, and have come to the tentative conclusion that Baluch rugs as finely knotted as this one are rare (around 240 kpsi). The only published knotted piece of equivalent knot density is a small camel trapping published by Frank. Among rugs, I haven't found examples beyond around 190-200 kpsi, so this must be at the extreme upper end of the spectrum.

At this point, we are mounting the rug on a dark indigo velvet backing and plan to mount it on a wall. As Frank noted, this is not usually a design that appeals, but the fineness and great colours make it very appealing. It looks very elegant, especially with good lighting that highlights the glowing sheen of the rose shades of madder and lustrous indigo.

James

[Chuck Wagner]

Hei Frank, James, et al.,

I confess to getting distracted and losing track of this thread but Frank has got me back on the rails now. :)

I should start by noting that I've posted one or two of these at some time in the past and I really can't remember whether Frank was commenting at the time. I blame it on margarita-induced brain cell disconnects... :cheers:

I have my own thoughts on these but I'd rather hear what you have to say before I reveal the depth of misunderstanding within..

The first has meaningful warp depression:

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/bsh01.jpg



http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/bsh03.jpg



http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/bsh04.jpg


This second one came from Bob Emry quite a long time ago:


http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Shrubbery01.jpg



http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Shrubbery02.jpg


And the last, with less age than the others, I think:



http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/BPD1b.jpg


http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/BPD2a.jpg


And James, I'll get back to pondering your question as well.

Regards
Chuck

[Frank Martin Diehr]

Hello Chuck, hello James, hello all,

Let me start with a few thoughts on the first one, the one with the four swans field motif (my term, it might actually be a highly stylised rendering of the animal tree concept of hoping for/trusting in rich pastures in all four corners of the nomads’ world, I will elaborate on my thoughts on that Baluch motif at another time). In its present form it is almost exclusively found on rugs with symmetrical knotting, within the main border or, as seen here, filling the field. Notably, it is also found in symmetrically knotted prayer rugs, where it appears in the main field (Craycraft pl. 38), the border, and even in the spandrels (e.g. Homer plate 34 (my plate 57 in TDD is a completely different kettle of fish)).

I’m sure you’re all familiar with the motif, so I’ ll cite just one comparable example that is shown on my collector friend Martin Willimann’ s excellent website, www.baluch.ch (http://www.baluch.ch)


https://www.baluch.ch/index.php/baluch-sammlungen/marlos-turkish-knotted-baluch/small-rugs/small-rug-msb-051

Disregarding their different borders, the fields of the two rugs are remarkably similar. However, and I am no stickler for structural analysis, where Martin’ s rug back shot shows the warps to be only slightly depressed, they appear markedly more depressed in Chuck’ s rug, and yet, the compartments are almost square in both cases. So I assume Chuck’ s rug to be denser and stiffer in handling.

Now, I am know fairly little about the symmetrically knotted "Bahluli?" rugs (and there are a few collectors specialising in those), so I refer you back to DeWitt Mallary and his noteworthy article about them in HALI 162, p. 69 -73. Chuck's rug fits the Bahluli characteristics, e.g. presence of aubergine, three ply wool (if I can make it out correctly), and warp depression. DeWitt credits Eiland (Oriental Rugs from Pacific Collections) in grouping them in to rugs with Kurdish and rugs with Turkic influence. Chuck’ s rug will fall in the Turkic influence subgroup, originating in the area west of Herat, or far eastern Khorasan, and might be dated, to my mind, to ca.1900/early 20th century.

DeWitt ends with

"For the moment, in the presence of evidence that indicates that these rugs are Bahluli, and the absence of evidence that they are anything else, it would seem reasonable to call them Bahluli."

Let that be all for tonight, but let me just add that the ex Bob Emry rug is (adding to James' rug) another Baluch cracker here on Turkotek! And its border might be seen as another variant of the four corners of the universe, winter - summer pastures concept/ Leitmotif, which is one of the few found in symmetrically as asymmetrically knotted Baluch rugs alike, thus forming a chain link in the Carpets from the Baluch Tradition (Azadi).

Kind regards

Frank

[James Blanchard]

Hi Chuck, Frank and all,

Chuck, thanks for sharing those rugs. I must admit, I have very little experience with symmetrically woven rugs "in the Baluch tradition", but those first two are lovely rugs from an important stream.

I'd like to focus a bit on the second rug (ex. Bob Emry). The red ground and lovely border and kilim ends make it stand out. I wonder if the main motifs are some localized version of a "shrub" motif. You might remember some time back I had introduced a somewhat thrashed version of a "shrub" Baluch that I think more likely comes from the NE Persia region, with a blue ground, perhaps more "Persianate" drawing of the shrubs, a classic border that seems more "northern" in origin, and asymmetric knotting.

https://live.staticflickr.co m/65535/51711168336_961cdf81 29_b.jpg

Cheers,

James

[Frank Martin Diehr]

Hi James, hi Chuck, hi all,

I have gone through one of my favourite rug books again, Black and Loveless Rugs of the Wandering Baluchi, and with reagrds to the age of Baluch rugs, Jon Thompson sprang to mind:

This question is an old chestnut. Since there are no methods for finding out the exact age of a rug, everyone can rest content with the reassuring confirmation of what he has known all along that there is only one person that really understands these difficult questions, namely himself (p.31).

Kind regards

Frank

[James Blanchard]

Hi Frank,

Thanks for referencing the Black and Loveless book; it's one of my favourites. Yes, the dating of Baluch rugs seems particularly challenging. In general, I go by the aphorism "old enough", since I find a lot of Baluch rugs appealing in their own particular ways, even if they have characteristics that might lead to a rather "late" date assignment.

Regarding the Salar Khani rug that is the original subject of this thread, it has characteristics that transcend the genre, for me. I have generally found the keshmeri design Salar Khani rugs to lack vibrancy or delicacy, but the rosy hues and lustre, along with a fineness of design make this one seem more elegant than most. Perhaps it justifies a designation of "old enough" for me, in this genre.

Cheers,

James

[Chuck Wagner]

Hi James, Frank, et al.,

So James, on the shrubbery topic,

...I couldn't resist...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/eb/Knightni.jpg/440px-Knightni.jpg

I am inclined to place these Baluch pieces in NW Afghanistan (on today's maps), in close proximity to the NW-Persia-southern Caspian-Silk Road trade routes, and where I would not be surprised to see both motifs and designs transfer and combine, since there were Kurds in northern Veramin/Mazandaran all the way NW to Azerbaijan.

Frank may have something to add on this.

Both our shrubbery rugs above hold an intermediate station, IMHO, with respect to motif rendering, based on placing traditional Kurdish and NW Persian detailed florals at the top, a la:

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/P1030571a.jpg

and then examples like ours in the middle, and at the bottom, renderings like these:

Example 1:
http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/TimBagSilk1.jpg

Example 2 (front & back):
http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/btab1.jpg

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/btab2.jpg

Regards
Chuck

[Joel Greifinger]

Hi folks,

Nothing substantive to add, but here are a couple of rugs with shrubs similar to James's:

https://i.postimg.cc/sD4GMcWy/Arthur-Arab-Baluch-clean.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/L84YL1kP/Baluch-blue-shrub-lattice.jpg

Joel

[James Blanchard]

Thanks for sharing those examples, Joel.

The shrub design in the field is certainly a close analogy. Do you know whether either of those examples are symmetrically knotted?

James

[Joel Greifinger]

Do you know whether either of those examples are symmetrically knotted?

Neither is symmetrically-knotted. I don't remember whether they are ASL or, considering the Ferdows-looking borders, ASR.

Joel

[Chuck Wagner]

Joel,

I would say the first (upper) one of your two has that classic vine & flower Kurdish bag border that is way outside the Baluch tradition. That's an interesting rug. If feasible a few closeups would be informative.

Regards
Chuck

[Dinie Gootjes]

Hi James, Joel and All,

Note from a gardener: this particular shrub seems to grow well in Arab type borders.
The first one was my own, I know the knotting is open left.
The others were once sold as "Arab", but I don't know whether that was on the basis of knotting, or borders and colours.

https://i.postimg.cc/43sFMWC3/shrub-Arab-type-open-left-001.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/k5HY4q62/Arab-Baluch-Ben-Banyan.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/nzZjqQQg/Arab-Baluch-Aaron-Zuckerman.jpg

[Joel Greifinger]

that classic vine & flower Kurdish bag border that is way outside the Baluch tradition.

Here is an 'Arab Baluch' rug with that border, that is knotted ASR:

https://i.postimg.cc/jjsYjhHG/IMG-0103.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/k5f3RtwD/IMG-0104.jpg

And this other 'Arab Baluch', just because I really like it :dancer:

https://i.postimg.cc/ht8qgYdL/Arab-Baluch-moons.jpg

Joel