Tekke Dowry Rug... similar examples?

[Paul Smith]

Hi Martin,

I am giddy with delight over these wonderful examples you are posting. That third fragment in this last set is particularly stunning (C-14 might give an interesting result on that one...), but these are all fabulous. We don't have a like button, so I had to make a post to say--thank you! My Elmby catalog arrived today, so I have been enjoying those delicious rugs as well...

Regards,

Paul

[Chuck Wagner]

Hi Martin, et al.,

I am now pondering whether it is more than coincidence that the central motif in the minor guls of my old torba (and others out there in rugdom) :

http://www.turkotek.com/mini_salon_00032/td03.jpg

bears a morphological (but miniaturized) resemblance to the central motif in the oblong guls on this piece:

https://iili.io/fjShss.md.jpg

Do you have other examples ?

Regards
Chuck

[Martin Andersen]

Hi Chuck

The Yomut/Eagle gol is very rare, I have seen a few others, but unfortunately haven't saved the photos. It's a bird of some kind (or a very strange camel) in the center of octagons. Here a closeup from a another sample were it's more visible:

https://iili.io/fj4ChP.jpg (https://freeimage.host/da)

So probably more likely that your weaver, intentional or unintentional, rearranged a few knots, not closing the central box in chemche gol. At least anything else would require some hefty speculation (well you know, I'm all for that :))

https://iili.io/fj4E4s.jpg (https://freeimage.host/da)

best Martin

[Martin Andersen]

slightly of topic, but Chuck here a chemche gul surrounded with diamond shapes like yours. No wonder Jim sees arrows/arrowheads in something like this

https://iili.io/fj4S3b.md.jpg (https://freeimage.host/i/fj4S3b)

[Martin Andersen]

Apparently the eagle gol format is called "Avian-Octagon". John Taylor have five samples on his great site Rugtracker, absolutely one of the best rug resources of images and facts on the net https://www.rugtracker.com/2013/03/eagle-group-primer.html

best Martin

[Chuck Wagner]

Hi Martin,

Not just arrows; he has also mentioned that - rather than ram's horns - he believes those are representations of recurve bows at the tips of the guls.

Which certainly fits with that last image.

Regards
Chuck

[Martin Andersen]

Hi Chuck

For sure bow too :)

https://iili.io/fj6bs9.md.jpg (https://freeimage.host/i/fj6bs9)

Another bow/arrow version here:

https://iili.io/fjP8kx.md.jpg (https://freeimage.host/i/fjP8kx)

Ramshorn, bow and arrow for me ain't mutually exclusive, it's kind of interesting composite stuff going on in this. Any interpretation is of course speculative.

best Martin

[Martin Andersen]

We have digressed a bit into the chemche gol, but what the heck - it is very interesting too :)...

Chuck, the shift in direction of the diagonal arms on the chemche gol of your Torba reminds me of the versions on the Tekke chuwals which goes in zigzag:

https://iili.io/fjQCjR.md.jpg (https://freeimage.host/i/fjQCjR)

Perhaps your weaver experimented with something which later turned into convention in the chuwals, but not in the Torbas ?

best Martin

(edit: the zigzag chemche is also at the Jourdan Tekke you posted earlier)

[Andrew Leng]

Martin
Ref the oblong tekke fragment you posted in post 42
I was drifting through https://www.academia.edu/17622467/TURKMEN_CARPETS_Mast erpieces_of_Steppe_A rt_from_16th_to_19th _centuries_The_Hoffm eister_collection
looking for something else.

I was looking through the Tekke section and saw that secondary gul. I think 2 of 5 rugs had that 2ndry gul the rest were chemche. Out of 18 torbas 17 were chemche and one something different. None the larger one you posted.
Don't know what that tells us. Maybe just the smaller format of the chemeche fits torbas better.
I have not looked anywhere else.

(Paul that is a free download worth a look, the book costs a lot
Also worth a look is turkmen_carpets_a_ne w_perspective_volume 2_dp.pdf and vol1 in academia as well ditto price of book )

[Martin Andersen]

Hi Andrew

Sorry this gets me a bit confused, which secondary gol are you referring to?

I was looking through the Tekke section and saw that secondary gul. I think 2 of 5 rugs had that 2ndry gul the rest were chemche.

Are you referring to this one, the gurbaghe gol ?
https://iili.io/fk3M11.jpg (https://freeimage.host/da)


Thanks a lot for the link, great to have as a PDF, unfortunately the images are in rather low resolution, that might be what makes the confusion.

Best Martin

[Andrew Leng]

HI Martin
Yes in images 29 and 31 in the book I thought the secondary guls look essentially the same as the one you picture in this last post 50. . They vary a bit from the one you have posted but they look structurally the same compared to chemche guls.
Andrew

[Paul Smith]

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the suggestion on the free Hoffmeister--excellent! I had already downloaded the Rageth book a few weeks ago. It is lovely to lose myself in all these fabulous Turkmen rugs!

Also, Martin, my copy of the first volume of the Elmby catalogs arrived. Getting some good resources for my current Turkmen obsession.

Paul

[Martin Andersen]

Thanks for the clarification Andrew. Not quite sure the terminology is correct, but as it probably is unique I suppose one could call it a miniaturized/simplified gurbaghe gol.

And Paul be sure to get all Elmbys 5 small catalogues, we need more turkomaniacism here on Turkotek :)

Best Martin

[Andrew Leng]

This is a 4ft x 5ft rug with the arrows midway down the border.


http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/DeWitt Mallary1.jpg

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/DeWitt Mallary2.jpg

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/DeWitt Mallary3.jpg

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/DeWitt Mallary4.jpg

While we are discussing reasons for the symbolism this rug also has the first three rows of chemche secondary gul different to the rest. It also has the second row from the top a total mix of symbols.

I harvested the images above a while ago while researching for a turkotek thread on my rather idiosyncratic tekke main, which incidentally has the arrows repeated a couple of times in the borders and also a row of differing secondary guls in the second row.



.

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Leng_eP1020238.jpg

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Leng_P1020236e.jpg

Here is an extract from the thread:
?Of 21 other Tekke mains with Chemche secondary guls I looked at I found four of them had the second row of secondary guls different and three had the first complete row different There was one with varying secondary chemche guls seemingly distributed randomly over the rug. (I also saw a chemche rug where a single minor gul was different but this time the odd one was, If I remember right, a Gurbaghe type.)

This positioning of a different row of chemche gul pattern in the second or first row seems to be deliberate. And not that uncommon. I found a comment by Jim Allen [The initial row of larger main gulls is often associated with minor gulls different from the rest.]

I wonder what is the reason for this regular location of the guest Chemche gul Is it a sign of friendship between two groups or more romantically a sign of a marriage with the wife?s design included in the husbands . I think the latter reason is more reasonable; would a group be happy with such a small showing. (Jim Allen suggests ?I suspect this indicated something about the Khan?s or clan?s linage to knowledgeable supplicants.?)

This format has been going on for some time eg Image 89 ?Quaradashli 16th or 17thC '' in (Turkomen Carpets a New Perspective Jurg Rageth) The second and middle secondary gull rows are different. (I did not include this in my tekke count).?

I did find this happening in one or two small rugs but I was not looking for it there and used ?tekke main? as a search and clicked on obviously large rugs images..

This layout seems to have disappeared in more recent rugs.

The whole thread is hereas a pdf file https://ufile.io/unzoqhpf click the free download it will take 3.5sec.
(It's a good site Martin as it allows you to blow up images of carpets, but only lasts 30 days so that somewhat depends on the life of thread.)

If this doorway rug I posted is showing respect for the other clan Having all three different is overkill compared to the single row variant occurring in the mains.


Regarding your cotton section. Who knows? There could be a variety of reasons. In my main they started with a green color that ran out after six rows of guls. I guess there could have been many reasons for this: they did not estimate right or the supply dried up.

[Paul Smith]

Hi Andrew,

Interesting how the weaver replaced the traditional apricot color with what appears to be cochineal in your rug. I agree that the shift in design of the chemches with the star-in-octagon-with-rays is striking. I don't think I've ever seen them outside of a border. And yeah, arrows.

Paul

[Martin Andersen]

Hi Andrew

Very nice rugs, especially your main rug.

Whether the 4ft x 5ft should be called a wedding rug I suppose is debatable, a bit too large in my opinion.
But great with the merger of Chemshe and Star and Octagon border, haven't seen that before. It sure looks like a very deliberate choice by the weaver. If the Turkmens have had a few more generations of traditional weaving something like that might even have evolved to a new secondary gol :)

My browser and security settings don't like the link you posted. Could you post the material in another form?

Regarding any specific meaning, symbolic, spatial or whatever, in the small variations we are of course in speculative territory. But hunting for it sure makes you look more insistingly at variations and small details in the rugs which are facts - and no rugs are harmed :)

Best Martin

[James Blanchard]

Hi Martin, et al.,

I am now pondering whether it is more than coincidence that the central motif in the minor guls of my old torba (and others out there in rugdom) :

http://www.turkotek.com/mini_salon_00032/td03.jpg

bears a morphological (but miniaturized) resemblance to the central motif in the oblong guls on this piece:

https://iili.io/fjShss.md.jpg

Do you have other examples ?

Regards
Chuck

Hi all,

Recognizing that I am running a bit of a risk by injecting a Baluch-related example into this Turkmen discussion, I thought I might re-introduce this example of a Timuri(?) rug that appears to have adapted the Yomut field design, including the creature with a load on the back. Note the decidedly Yomut outer minor border, which strengthens the design linkage.

Cheers,

James

http://www.turkotek.com/misc_00127/timuri_files/6799562729_65d058f65 b_b.jpg

[Martin Andersen]

Well spotted James

The simple drawing of dots sure makes the Baluch Bird look like the Turkmen.

Here together with a Khalyk with the motif from the museum in Ashgabat. And below a bagface with what I suppose is the more conventional drawing of the Baluch Bird.

https://iili.io/qo0ONI.md.jpg (https://freeimage.host/i/qo0ONI)

Best Martin

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

Hi Martin,
My browser and security settings don't like the link you posted. Could you post the material in another form?

I just sent you a PDF copy of Andrew's file by e-mail.
Regards,
Filiberto

P.S. I hope your e-mail addresses are still valid.

[Martin Andersen]

Hi All

Here two beauties, belonging to Lee Koch:

https://iili.io/quT8b9.md.jpg (https://freeimage.host/i/quT8b9)

https://iili.io/quTrib.md.jpg (https://freeimage.host/i/quTrib)

Especially no 2 to me looks very attractive and old. It measures around 1 x 1 meter. I suppose its small single Star and Octagon border and its Elem makes it an obvious Wedding rug. Of course no way of knowing for sure as it is shortened, joined in the middle and missing its sideborders.

Well, I took it to photoshop trying to imagine how it could have looked with its sideborders in a wedding rug format:

https://iili.io/quA5aR.md.jpg (https://freeimage.host/i/quA5aR)

It would have to had been as a minimum a 3 x 7 gol layout to respect the diagonal colorshift I think is present in both the large gols and the Chemshe.

Best Martin